Thunderbird Club

[hillerup]

That's what I thought also. Then I ran into this posting at Guitar Center...
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It's cool looking and the price isn't bad but I don't think its a Pro IV. I'm not up on the Eppi models, any clue what it might actually be?

Then what's this...
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That Epi is a bolt-on necked limited edition custom shop model in the color TV Silver with a 1.5" nut and chrome hardware.

These are very nice players with a nice slim neck profile.

 

[RedVee]

That's what I thought also. Then I ran into this posting at Guitar Center...
Invalid Link Removed
It's cool looking and the price isn't bad but I don't think its a Pro IV. I'm not up on the Eppi models, any clue what it might actually be?

Epiphone (Gibson?) have tried very hard to confuse.
Pro IV is neck through
Classic Pro is neck through and to be replaced by the new one.
Thunderbird IV is bolt on.
Thunderbird Goth is bolt on but stealth mode.

When I was trying to learn about Thunderbirds I was almost perpetually confused. So many ads for the Epi's are mislabeled which doesnt help anyone.

 

[Mike A]

Epiphone > Gibson

Sorry, not sorry.

Disagree, but it''s a narrow margin.

 

[Christine]

Disagree, but it''s a narrow margin.

When you look at them more closely from a manufacturing point of view it's less close. Such as the way the wings are joined to the neck board (vee cut vs butt joint), it's a lot better on the Gibson than the Epiphones. You may argue how that is of any importance and to the player it probably isn't but the difference is there and the price for the extra work must be higher. The use of a nitro finish is also (or should be) more time consuming than shooting a polyurethane lacquer that can be buffed and shipped the next day after a bit of a bake. Again a point of contention but to me that alone is the big difference between the two and why I would buy the more expensive option given limitless funds.

You're absolutely right though, from a player point of view the difference is small, very small but the Gibson has a slight edge

 

[PillO]

Then what's this...
Invalid Link Removed

I t looks like one of these:
Epiphone TV Silver Thunderbird IV Bass

 

[hillerup]

I t looks like one of these:
Epiphone TV Silver Thunderbird IV Bass

That's what I just said above...

 

[PillO]

Epiphone (Gibson?) have tried very hard to confuse.
Pro IV is neck through
Classic Pro is neck through and to be replaced by the new one.
Thunderbird IV is bolt on.
Thunderbird Goth is bolt on but stealth mode.

When I was trying to learn about Thunderbirds I was almost perpetually confused. So many ads for the Epi's are mislabeled which doesnt help anyone.

I don't think that Gibson/Epiphone have gone out of their way to confuse. They just haven't expended the effort to make sure that the branding is clear. The retailers have made no effort to understand the models. And the outcome is that many things are mislabeled.

This is not unique to Gibson/Epiphone. Have you tried to tell the difference between all the 7ender models? The only difference is that there are zealots/anoraks that will loudly correct any errors. I will also point out that it is not unique to musical instruments either.

 

[PillO]

That's what I just said above...

Yes, but it was on a new page, so not immediately obvious. I also included the link to the Epiphone webpage. So I will claim some value added.

 

[Count Bassie]

Since I am seeing discussion of GK stuff and a nice mix of technical and this is what I like, I am going to pose this question here. My current rig, MarkBass CMD102P, is plenty loud for a number of places that we play. It is not loud enough for other places we play. I know, we play loud and I cant change that. In looking for a new rig I discovered that I really like the tone, growl and earthy roar, of a Fender Rumble 500. The MB has great clarity, but it s a different tone-- like moderately dirty while demanding attention. While I like the tone, I know it will be much the same as the size is the same ballpark as the MB. The logical conclusion was to look for something larger in Fender, something comparable to the larger MB rig under consideration. In looking at costs and reading reviews, GK has snuck into the mix. I understand that this can be a very complicated set of calculations and calculus. I don't have the bandwidth to learn all that, so I am looking for recommendations/opinions/personal preferences. So, what say the crowd here. I will link to things I am considering below, but I am also willing to consider other things in a similar price range.

Rig 1
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Markbass Standard 104HF Front-Ported Neo 4x10 Bass Speaker Cabinet

Rig 2
Fender Bassman 800 Hybrid 800W Bass Amp Head
Fender Bassman Pro 410 4x10 Neo Bass Speaker Cabinet

Rig 3
Invalid Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Somehow never saw this, you've probably done something by now... but... and this will include personal remarks, there I said it...

I finally learned to not like Markbass, but it takes me a while to know my ear with an amp. I find it too hi-fi, too pasteurized- when I hear reggae bass players using it I miss something significant from their tone. Descriptive word: "Bloodless".

Fender... more old-school, more essential. Less thumpy than Ampeg, but also less dangerous sounding. I'd say it's a very useable sound, I could probably go anywhere with it. A little generic, but that's good if you're an itinerant player and seek a reliable working sound.

GK. That active eq and the very engineered power section, which hasn't changed much all these years, is a pretty deadly combination. It's definitely a flavor, but still an able and adaptable machine.
Slammin', crunchy, internal organ-rearranging rock tones and power are in that little box.
Sweet, articulate snazzy-jazzy tones are a-poppin'.
One of my reggae band mates commented that GK's not voiced well for reggae, but I don't agree. Though it tends to be not so deeply voiced as my old Trace head, it's not significant, as in most situations that kind of eq is less than desirable anyway. Muddies up the FOH mix... the GK eq is well able to give you your dub fix.

GK is killer gear, whatever model you decide on.

 

[PillO]

When you look at them more closely from a manufacturing point of view it's less close. Such as the way the wings are joined to the neck board (vee cut vs butt joint), it's a lot better on the Gibson than the Epiphones. You may argue how that is of any importance and to the player it probably isn't but the difference is there and the price for the extra work must be higher. The use of a nitro finish is also (or should be) more time consuming than shooting a polyurethane lacquer that can be buffed and shipped the next day after a bit of a bake. Again a point of contention but to me that alone is the big difference between the two and why I would buy the more expensive option given limitless funds.

You're absolutely right though, from a player point of view the difference is small, very small but the Gibson has a slight edge

If memory serves, the primary difference between Gibson and Epiphone is that Gibson is made in USA and Epiphone is not.

I don't have any data in front of me, however, I think working with nitrocellulose is more expensive than polyurethane not because of time or manpower, but because of the environmental precautions that must be taken with nitrocellulose. If memory serves, it is quite toxic and flammable.

 

[Count Bassie]

P.s... I swapped my GK gear for other, but there's not much accounting for personal taste! Mere preference. But my sensibilities concerning your picks are represented above...

 

[ubernator]

If memory serves, the primary difference between Gibson and Epiphone is that Gibson is made in USA and Epiphone is not.

I don't have any data in front of me, however, I think working with nitrocellulose is more expensive than polyurethane not because of time or manpower, but because of the environmental precautions that must be taken with nitrocellulose. If memory serves, it is quite toxic and flammable.

Nitro is not legal to use in some areas, hence fender stopped using it (California). I know some models have it, perhaps arizona has looser laws. One of my guitars has a custom nitro finish, the luthier was like "hey this is illegal to use but it is the good stuff" , 25 yrs ago. Laws may have changed, politicians may have been bought.

Anyone saying their Chinese epiphone is better than a Gibson is fooling themselves, however when price: quality ratio is taken into account....

My Korean goth is noticeably better built than the Chinese one I just got. The truss bug is almost stripped because the truss is too hard to turn and the metal is not hard enough on those nuts. A recipe for disaster. Corners cut. I did a full setup on the goth and had no problems. The adjuster seems to be too tight against the cavity, just sloppy manufacturing, and can see some slop on the pickup routes. Just overall fit and finish is not as good on the Chinese.

I will try to get a korean one if I get another. Or take you guy's word on the custom shop limited editions being a little better. Still want a TV silver. Am considering trying to trade my sunburst and some money/fender bag for a TV silver.

 

[Christine]

If memory serves, the primary difference between Gibson and Epiphone is that Gibson is made in USA and Epiphone is not.

I don't have any data in front of me, however, I think working with nitrocellulose is more expensive than polyurethane not because of time or manpower, but because of the environmental precautions that must be taken with nitrocellulose. If memory serves, it is quite toxic and flammable.

The health/environmental issue with nitro ia another issue again but from the time aspect it does take longer to reach a state of dryness/hardness suitable for buffing/shipping than a 2 pack poly which dries/hardens by a chemical process rather than evaporation.

My Epiphone does have differences to my Gibson, the tuners on the Gibson are better quality, the bridge and it's fitting are also different (but function is identical), the Epiphone using a thin commercial veneer of a darker wood where Gibson use a 1/8" machined laminate. Gibson have gone to the bother of masking the rebate in the headstock when spraying whereas Epiphone have chosen tot to probably to reduce time/cost. Just small differences but they all add up to more cost in time of manufacture

 

[hillerup]

Yes, but it was on a new page, so not immediately obvious. I also included the link to the Epiphone webpage. So I will claim some value added.

Granted!

 

[BassJuju]

Somehow never saw this, you've probably done something by now... but... and this will include personal remarks, there I said it...

I finally learned to not like Markbass, but it takes me a while to know my ear with an amp. I find it too hi-fi, too pasteurized- when I hear reggae bass players using it I miss something significant from their tone. Descriptive word: "Bloodless".

Fender... more old-school, more essential. Less thumpy than Ampeg, but also less dangerous sounding. I'd say it's a very useable sound, I could probably go anywhere with it. A little genetic, but that's good if you're an itinerary player and seek a reliable working sound.

GK. That active eq and the very engineered power section, which hasn't changed much all these years, is a pretty deadly combination. It's definitely a flavor, but still an able and adaptable machine.
Slammin', crunchy, internal organ-rearranging rock tones and power are in that little box.
Sweet, articulate snazzy-jazzy tones are a-poppin'.
One of my reggae band mates commented that GK's not voiced well for reggae, but I don't agree. Though it tends to be not so deeply voiced as my old Trace head, it's not significant, as in most situations that kind of eq is lesd than dedirable anyway. Muddies up the FOH mix... the eq is well able to give you your dub fix.

GK is killer gear, whatever model you decide on.

Thanks for the info... I have done something at this point, but I am ultimately still waiting. I went the Fender route. Bassman 800W head and Neo Pro 4 X 10 cab. I preferred the tone of the 500W Fender Rumble and hypothesized that this rig would be similar. It's that dirty growl that I really dig. I have found the settings to get it out of a MB to some level, but not the same. The cab was/is back ordered and will hopefully ship in the next day or so. Once it arrives, I plan to set it up at the local GC and jam on it. IF it has that same tone, I will take it home. If it is something less than peep show dirty then I will have to punt. Probably the GK at that point. I have decided I have enough MB tone with the one combo. I also am considering Ampeg, I liked a BA 210 I played through once, but I think it will be GK.

Again, Thanks! I will post an update once I get something sorted out.

 

[kat888]

Thanks for the info... I have done something at this point, but I am ultimately still waiting. I went the Fender route. Bassman 800W head and Neo Pro 4 X 10 cab. I preferred the tone of the 500W Fender Rumble and hypothesized that this rig would be similar. It's that dirty growl that I really dig. I have found the settings to get it out of a MB to some level, but not the same. The cab was/is back ordered and will hopefully ship in the next day or so. Once it arrives, I plan to set it up at the local GC and jam on it. IF it has that same tone, I will take it home. If it is something less than peep show dirty then I will have to punt. Probably the GK at that point. I have decided I have enough MB tone with the one combo. I also am considering Ampeg, I liked a BA 210 I played through once, but I think it will be GK.

Again, Thanks! I will post an update once I get something sorted out.

FWIW the PF500 head I had sounded quite good (for a solid state microamp) when it was working, and the PF800 is well liked. If I was looking for a class D amp, it would be Ampeg or TC Electronic.

 

[Korladis]

When you look at them more closely from a manufacturing point of view it's less close. Such as the way the wings are joined to the neck board (vee cut vs butt joint), it's a lot better on the Gibson than the Epiphones. You may argue how that is of any importance and to the player it probably isn't but the difference is there and the price for the extra work must be higher. The use of a nitro finish is also (or should be) more time consuming than shooting a polyurethane lacquer that can be buffed and shipped the next day after a bit of a bake. Again a point of contention but to me that alone is the big difference between the two and why I would buy the more expensive option given limitless funds.

You're absolutely right though, from a player point of view the difference is small, very small but the Gibson has a slight edge

For quite a while (from a decade ago until this past year or two) I thought I hated T-birds because every one I tried had a neck uncomfortable (to me! every hand is different!) to the point that play even just a short while on it hurt my hand.

Then on a whim I tried an Epiphone (neck through model). It felt great. I tried another one. It also felt fantastic.

Bought another TBer's. It feels great, too.

All the Gibson ones I've tried hurt.

Unlike a lot of people who like vintage style guitars, I really don't care about nitro. Honestly as far as durability I think it's pretty lousy, from what I've seen. My favorite instruments never even used it, so to me it's just a more fragile finish that people gush about because Gibsons and Fenders used it back in the 50s and 60s.

I don't think that Gibson/Epiphone have gone out of their way to confuse. They just haven't expended the effort to make sure that the branding is clear. The retailers have made no effort to understand the models. And the outcome is that many things are mislabeled.

This is not unique to Gibson/Epiphone. Have you tried to tell the difference between all the 7ender models? The only difference is that there are zealots/anoraks that will loudly correct any errors. I will also point out that it is not unique to musical instruments either.

Don't even get me started on Fender. I'm not saying that their products are bad or anything, but goddamn, how many different P-basses are there and how are they different? What if I just wanted a regular jazz bass?

Somehow never saw this, you've probably done something by now... but... and this will include personal remarks, there I said it...

I finally learned to not like Markbass, but it takes me a while to know my ear with an amp. I find it too hi-fi, too pasteurized- when I hear reggae bass players using it I miss something significant from their tone. Descriptive word: "Bloodless".

Fender... more old-school, more essential. Less thumpy than Ampeg, but also less dangerous sounding. I'd say it's a very useable sound, I could probably go anywhere with it. A little genetic, but that's good if you're an itinerary player and seek a reliable working sound.

GK. That active eq and the very engineered power section, which hasn't changed much all these years, is a pretty deadly combination. It's definitely a flavor, but still an able and adaptable machine.
Slammin', crunchy, internal organ-rearranging rock tones and power are in that little box.
Sweet, articulate snazzy-jazzy tones are a-poppin'.
One of my reggae band mates commented that GK's not voiced well for reggae, but I don't agree. Though it tends to be not so deeply voiced as my old Trace head, it's not significant, as in most situations that kind of eq is lesd than dedirable anyway. Muddies up the FOH mix... the eq is well able to give you your dub fix.

GK is killer gear, whatever model you decide on.

GKs are awesome. Like I've said before, if I was in the market for a solid state bass head, I'd probably get a GK. Also love Ampegs, though.

Nitro is not legal to use in some areas, hence fender stopped using it (California). I know some models have it, perhaps arizona has looser laws. One of my guitars has a custom nitro finish, the luthier was like "hey this is illegal to use but it is the good stuff" , 25 yrs ago. Laws may have changed, politicians may have been bought.

Anyone saying their Chinese epiphone is better than a Gibson is fooling themselves, however when price: quality ratio is taken into account....

My Korean goth is noticeably better built than the Chinese one I just got. The truss bug is almost stripped because the truss is too hard to turn and the metal is not hard enough on those nuts. A recipe for disaster. Corners cut. I did a full setup on the goth and had no problems. The adjuster seems to be too tight against the cavity, just sloppy manufacturing, and can see some slop on the pickup routes. Just overall fit and finish is not as good on the Chinese.

I will try to get a korean one if I get another. Or take you guy's word on the custom shop limited editions being a little better. Still want a TV silver. Am considering trying to trade my sunburst and some money/fender bag for a TV silver.

My Indonesian T-bird feels better than any I've tried.

Nitro, as mentioned, I don't care about. It's not as durable, it yellows more noticeably, and apparently it's more toxic/polluting. Honestly I think talk about how it "breathes better" or is better for "the tonez" is a bunch of silly guitarist woo like overpriced orange drop caps.

 

[Dadagoboi]

FWIW the PF500 head I had sounded quite good (for a solid state microamp) when it was working, and the PF800 is well liked. If I was looking for a class D amp, it would be Ampeg or TC Electronic.

That's because you haven't played one of these...

Three tubes, six lbs, 900 watts @ 4 ohms, and bulletproof.

Sitting on its just-in-case backup.

Two tubes, 18 lbs, 200 watts made in USA, last 'peg I'll ever buy after the PF-500 fiasco.

I removed and replaced the Streamliner logo plexi with clear lexan. Looks better with the 12AX7s behind it.

 

[rodv66]

For quite a while (from a decade ago until this past year or two) I thought I hated T-birds because every one I tried had a neck uncomfortable (to me! every hand is different!) to the point that play even just a short while on it hurt my hand.

Then on a whim I tried an Epiphone (neck through model). It felt great. I tried another one. It also felt fantastic.

Bought another TBer's. It feels great, too.

All the Gibson ones I've tried hurt.

Unlike a lot of people who like vintage style guitars, I really don't care about nitro. Honestly as far as durability I think it's pretty lousy, from what I've seen. My favorite instruments never even used it, so to me it's just a more fragile finish that people gush about because Gibsons and Fenders used it back in the 50s and 60s.


Don't even get me started on Fender. I'm not saying that their products are bad or anything, but goddamn, how many different P-basses are there and how are they different? What if I just wanted a regular jazz bass?


GKs are awesome. Like I've said before, if I was in the market for a solid state bass head, I'd probably get a GK. Also love Ampegs, though.


My Indonesian T-bird feels better than any I've tried.

Nitro, as mentioned, I don't care about. It's not as durable, it yellows more noticeably, and apparently it's more toxic/polluting. Honestly I think talk about how it "breathes better" or is better for "the tonez" is a bunch of silly guitarist woo like overpriced orange drop caps.

My Chinese Epiphone is good value for the money. I have played other ones that were not great, as far as sound and finishing touches. I played a goth at local Sam Ash and was shocked how good it was. I had another Epiphone that sounded like sludge no matter how I tried to EQ it.
I can only speak for my Gibson, but the quality is far higher. The small details are better, the bridge is better and the tuners are better. Seeing the price difference between the two brands, the Epiphone is a good value for the money, depending on what one you got off the line.

 

[PillO]

My Indonesian T-bird feels better than any I've tried.

I love the neck on my T Bird Pro (Indonesia). It feels great. I have tried a couple of bolt-ons and they don't feel right. If I get another T Bird, it must be a neck through.

Nitro, as mentioned, I don't care about. It's not as durable, it yellows more noticeably, and apparently it's more toxic/polluting. Honestly I think talk about how it "breathes better" or is better for "the tonez" is a bunch of silly guitarist woo like overpriced orange drop caps.

Nitrocellulose wears more/faster than a polyurethane finish. That is why all those old instruments get road-worn. It is toxic and flammable so is difficult to work with due to storage and handling concerns. I don't know that it is illegal in any jurisdiction (although California legislators like to think that their laws trump all others), but the OSHA handling restrictions would make it cost prohibitive many places. I have one nitro finished bass and I can't feel any difference, but I do get to worry about staining, chips, and wear.