*TI Flats MegaThread*

[Pier_]

Still gonna give them a fair shake!

have you tried rolling the tone off a bit? their mid presence is great for playing with the tone closed, because rolling off the highs doesn't kill the sound like it does with scooped strings.

ofr example, I've had a Classic 50's Precision, with the 1mf capacitor (stock), which closes the tone A LOT, and with every string it was like playing a kick drum. when I strung it with Thomastik, even with the tone closed the sound was good.

however, play them a lot and they'll mellow out wonderfully.

here's my 4 year old set on my main Precision:



the same bass here with Thomastik Jazz Round:

 

[tallboybass]

Thanks for the tip on the tone control. Haven't tried that because i like to hear the full spectrum from highs to mids to lows. What i have tried is a foam mute, and that sounds pretty darn cool! It kind of got lost in the mix playing live however.

 

[Pier_]

It kind of got lost in the mix playing live however.

the foam is a double bladed knife is wonderful in some contexts, in particular when there are few instruments and not much "playing", and the bass can stand up front in the mix, like in motown or some blues stuff, like the songs where Donald Dunn played.

for example, I play in a kind of tribute band or Blues Brothers and The Commitments, with a section of 20 elements (14 sax, 4 trumpet and a trombone), 2 guitars, a pianist, a drummer, three chorists and a lead singer... when I tried the bass with the foam mute in this band, it was like not playing at all, and in the live recordings the bass disappeared, except in songs like Soul Man, where the bass plays a lot.

in another blues/motown band, smaller (1 guitar, drum and 2 singers), the foam is wonderful because the bass is clearly aubile even if the notes are short and with an instant decay.

louder/fuller the band, worst is the effect of the mute, IMHO!

 

[Luckydog]

Pier, you've done a fantastic job of explaining the effects of different strings, settings, tricks, etc. You don't just say "try this", you identify the reasons why something works and something does not. And I, for one, have found your reasoning to be spot on. If there was a TB Masters list, I would nominate you for entry! Thanks for the time you take with your detailed posts. Very helpful!

 

[tallboybass]

You're so right, Pier! During rehearsal it sounded great with the mute bringing out cool, subtleties. Then, come performance time, with more guitars and volume, it went away. Had to yank the foam! After listening to recordings however, it sounded pretty good, even with the foam in there. I'll have to dig up a video example...stay tuned.

 

[Slowpicker]

How do you guys deal with basses where the nut grooves are too wide for the relatively thin TI flats?

In my case its a MIA P where the TI flats do not perfectly fit into the nut. Especially the A string.

... and I would really love to play these strings on my MIA P!

 

[Luckydog]

You can put glue in the nut slot, then usr the correct size round file to shape the slot

 

[Luckydog]

I didnt change my slots and havent had a problem on any basses with the ti's, but i'm not very particular and i dont notice any weird vibration or sound.

 

[OzzyGreg]

.
Interesting that joebar didn't like them on a Jazz bass but liked them on a Precision.
I found exactly the opposite when I first bought a set of TI flats!

I tried them on my Precision and didn't like them at all (sorry, can't recall why, it was too long ago) and went with Fender 9050ML flats.
I then stuck the same set of TIs on my Jazz bass and fell in love with them. They've been there ever since.
I then bought a set for my Rick and loved them on that bass as well.
I've fitted a set to my Gibson ES-335 too and they'll be staying put there I think.

A common denominator?
All I can think of is that for me, they seem to really work best on a bass with two pickups.

 

[Freekmagnet]

Yeah, I'm not so sure I'm going to be able to get with the TI's. Seems like no matter how soft I play, I'm still getting quite a bit of fret buzz. I use my fingers to get a lot of punch out of my bass, and I just can't play soft enough for them to take me to my happy place. If they had 'em in 105's, I might be able to pull it off.

Oh well, search continues.

 

[tallboybass]

All I can think of is that for me, they seem to really work best on a bass with two pickups.

That makes sense, two pickup basses tend to scoop more mids than one pickup models in general, and the TI's are quite mid heavy. Should be a match made in heaven!

 

[Pier_]

Very helpful!

thank you! I like to spend words about strings, because in my years of bass playing I've noticed that strings are more influent than pickups or other changes people are prone to do.

many people use to change pickups, amps and then basses, but in the end they don't even think of trying new strings. I know a lot of bass players seeking the tone of flatwound strings, but don't know about them.
they change the pickup, use dead rounds, equalize their amps with weird shapes, and then they discover the magic world of flats.

same with steel or nickel. a friend of mine used to buy only Rotosound Swing66, but hated their tone and feeling... but they had those strings in the shop, why change?
after using a set of nickels on one of my basses, he discovred a new world.

I knew a guy on a forum who only used Ernie Ball, complaining about their basses sounding dead, and he wanted a brighter and scooped tone, so he bought pickups, changed basses, because he didn't knew that steel strings were on the market since the 60's...

I like to change strings and keep track of how my basses sound, and only in the worst case think about changing pickups. strings must be changed often, so it's not a big deal, in the end. and flats can be sold for a good price

In my case its a MIA P where the TI flats do not perfectly fit into the nut. Especially the A string.

normal thing. your bass came with a 45-100 or 45-105 set, TI flats gauge is 43-56-70-100. the A and D string can come from a 35-90 set, and probably your nut slots are too wide for them.
usually, in these cases, I put a small drop of glue (super attak, don't know if it has another name oustide of Italy) in the slots, and when it dries, I sand it to the proper height.

 

[tallboybass]

^ More great words about strings, thanks Pier!

I spent more time with my TI-strung PJ last night. It's amazing to me how they sound so much different acoustically than plugged in. The A and D strings are still rattly but when electrified I don't notice that at all! They sound MUCH bigger when you use an amp. Is this a common occurrence with super-light gauge strings?

And here's a funny thing...they feel stiffer to me when played through an amplifier because they 'sound' bigger! Psychoacoustics at work I'm sure!!

Last night I was thinking pretty strongly about moving them to the Jazz...then I tried blending even more of the back pu in on the PJ. It seems imperative for my situation to be able to do that. Just using the P pickup alone it's pretty 'midrange honky' to my ears. YMMV

Anyway, after last night, I'm going to leave them on there a while longer. It was making some beautiful sounds...I'm really loving the A string with the wonderful 'mwah' sound! Wish it would spread to the other strings!

 

[Mastermold]

...But, thinking about the tonal characteristics of these strings, it seems like they might be better suited to a Jazz Bass...what do you think? ...

I've found them a perfect match on P-basses, Rics, hollow bodies, but (surprisingly) not Jazz basses.

 

[Mastermold]

it all depends on what we are seeking in terms of sound. the "P bass history" is full of flatwounded examples, even today, but the "Jazz Bass history" has fewer examples of flatwound sound.

Joe Osborn, maybe the first two Led Zeppelin albums, something from the Abbey Road album (but usually with V shaped eq, with McCartney experimenting new sounds), Aston Barrett... who else? I knew that the bass player from Steve Miller's Band played a Jazz with flats (clearly heard on "The Joker")... who else is well known for the Jazz Bass & Flatwound sound? Larry Graham back in the 70's?

the Jazz is more often associated with roundwound strings, since the 70's, from John Paul Jones to Jaco, in the funk/disco era...

simply we are not used to that sound

just like the Rickenbacker: the iconic players used rounds, overdriven tones, a pick... and that's how we think that a Rick should sound! we can't imagine a Rick played in slap, or without the aggressiveness of a pick (even if McCartney played it with flats in the most part of the Beatles discography, since Rubber Soul), even if it sounds wonderfully played in every way.

the P-bass with flats is still one of the most used and recognized sounds

TI flats haven't worked well on my Jazz basses but other flats do very well, La Bellas, Chromes, Fender flats, etc. all seem to work better on a Jazz in my experience. Don't know why excactly but I suspect the mid-focus of TIs is too much mid for the tonal characteristics of most Jazz basses.

 

[Pier_]

Is this a common occurrence with super-light gauge strings?

no, it's because Thomastik uses a particular alloy for the windings, which is magnetically strong, so they have more output compared to other strings. the first time I noticed this thing was then I had this set of Rotosound Jazz77 unused (too rough for flats): I wanted to retry them (they were mounted for a while), so I took the E string and switched.
acoustically, the Roto 105 sounded fierce and strong, with an extreme high tension that made all the wood vibrate. then I plugged in, and... the output was HALF compared to the Thomastik A, D & G. I tried to set the pickup height, but nothing, that E sounded good, but with less volume.
I started noticeing the same thing with other strings, more or less, in particular with the amplifier gain: the same bass with TI needed a lower gain setting, being too powerful; with other strings I had to raise it, depending on the strings.

same story with the Jazz Round. even if the E is a 89, it shoots cannonballs, and this lead me to your other sentence:

hey feel stiffer to me when played through an amplifier because they 'sound' bigger!

that's normal, for the same reason. the right frequencies to make the bass sound "full" and "cutting through" make the bass sound "more" in terms of perceived volume.
because of this, you need less strenght to make the sound come out, and a lighter touch makes the strings feel stiffer, or I might say "less bendable" under the plucking hand.

for example, right now I'm using the Jazz Rounds on my Mustang. I've tried the DR Hi Beams for a couple of weeks, but they had poor mid content and in a band situation the sound was a bit lost.
with the TI Jazz Rounds the overall sound is warmer, less bright, but those strings sound so punchy that in the mix the bass seems to have twice the body and warmth.

Just using the P pickup alone it's pretty 'midrange honky' to my ears.

well, that's how flats usually sound on a P bass. think about the Motown sound, or Dunald Dunn. you can feel the bassline like a brass line. closing the tone makes it sound mellower and less honky.

 

[Luckydog]

Excellent analysis, Pier.

 

[tallboybass]

Great info and thoughtful insight Pier!

well, that's how flats usually sound on a P bass. think about the Motown sound, or Dunald Dunn. you can feel the bassline like a brass line. closing the tone makes it sound mellower and less honky.

I have to disagree with you on all flats sounding 'midrange honky' on a P bass. I've had Chromes, GHS flats, Fender flats (old & new Fender) on my Precision and they are all smoother sounding through the mids than the TI's.

This makes me wonder if maybe you've forgotten what they sounded like new. It's a very different sound from anything I've ever strung a bass with in my 43 years of playing bass. They ARE getting better though. The zing and honk are much more palatable now after 1 1/4 months of regular play, and I'm getting better at EQ and pickup blend to make them sound closer to what I'm looking for.

This has been a very informative thread for me, I hope everyone else is getting as much from it as I am. Thanks again!

 

[Pier_]

I actually don't mind the sound of brand new flats or to sat it better, I don't like it.

Last year I opened a topic with a comparison between TI and Labella Jamerson, with many samples.
Search for it and see if you can "hear" which is which

 

[Christcr]

For those of you who want to close your nut slots down a bit, you can use cyanoacrylate (super glue) and baking soda. I've never really found that I've needed to narrow the gap when using smaller strings (in fact, I like to file them a little wide), but I am pretty fussy about nut height (it has a HUGE impact on playability, especially in the first few positions), so I've filed a nut too low on more than one occasion. Putting a masking tape "dam" over front and back of the nut slot, building a layer of dry baking soda around the inside of the slot as filled-in as you need, and dropping super glue onto the baking soda "dam" works great. It's like cement when dry (which takes only seconds with the chemical reaction) and I've never had it come off or fall apart. And you can't usually tell it apart from the nut material. then you just file it to the proper height and width with your nut files.

That's a trick we used to use when I worked in guitar repair to save the costumer money on a new nut and fitting/filing. The only caution is do not breath the vapor when you mix the two chemicals and do NOT get it anywhere besides in the nut slot. Like I said, it turns out cement hard and it will ruin the aesthetics of your bass if you slop it around.


As for TI flats... I tried them years ago and for whatever reason, they didn't really impress me. I hate the sound of dead strings, but I don't think it was because they sounded totally dead to me. And I do remember liking the light tension. So, at this point, I really can't remember why I didn't like them. Perhaps I should give them another go.

I tend to use bright strings (SS) and roll the tone knob and treble back on the amp. And if I don't hear that treble bite with the tone wide open, it feels as if I'm missing something that I do want to be able to hear, even if when I'm playing in a group situation, I roll it back.

Maybe it's time to reassess that attitude... because really, if one uses very bright strings and always rolls the brightness back, is that really an advantage over a less bright string with the tone wide open? I suppose it could be in certain cases when you need that brightness at times, but I don't play in those situations much any more. I'm getting old. And... GETTING OLD = DINOSAUR ROCK. (notice the smiley has no teeth)