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Timing issues

#101
Bass Boy J said:
Hi everyone.
I’ve been playing bass for close to three years now, and it seems no matter how many exercises I do with metronomes, drum machines, etc. I just can’t get my timing down, I’ve tried tapping my foot, moving my body to the beat of whatever song I’m playing, but just can’t my timing down. I was wondering if anyone has had this problem and has been able to fix it with some sort of exercise.
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Just FWIW I do 20-30 minutes of timing and groove exercises every day. I've found two things. The first is that solid time and time feel is not innate. It's not something that some people have and some don't. One way or another everyone has to work on it.

Then the second thing I've learned is that it's perishable. If I do my exercises every day then each time it feels fluid, like I'm in the pocket and grooving. But if I take a few days off then that first day or two back I'm definitely not in the pocket and I have a much harder time settling in and feeling confident. So I've learned to do them every day.

I highly recommend checking out Rich Brown's metronome exercises (a 4-part series on his Youtube channel "The Brownstone"). The SBL timing and groove class is worthwhile too.

Give yourself 20 minutes a day doing dedicated timing and groove exercises for a month and I bet you will find improvements.
 
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#102
TJL said:
... The bass is even more about the rhythm than it is the notes...
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Truer words were never spoken and a lot of people either don't know this or have forgotten it.

I can remember, when I first started playing the bass, the joke from the guitar players was: "If you get lost (musically) just hit an A, but don't mess Bobby (the drummer) up or we're all going to look stupid."

I remember saying that if I hit an A while they were hitting Gs, I would look stupid. They seemed to be okay with that (initially).

I think, to a degree, it's true that hitting even a wrong note that is in time is preferable to throwing everyone else out of whack (and you can always claim you were experimenting with a new mode).
 
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#104
g-dude said:
different people have different levels of coordination potential, and there are indeed people that are the rhythmic equivalent of tone deaf.
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Thus it is most often not the case that "you got it or you don't"
It's broad spectrum of ability that spans between got it and don't
A spectrum upon which one can move the needle closer to got it
With proper instruction, practice and attention.
we are a fungible brained species; most people's sense of time is not fixed by destiny

I think use it or lose it is a more appropriate platitude
 
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#105
mambo4 said:
Invalid Link Removed

Thus it is most often not the case that "you got it or you don't"
It's broad spectrum of ability that spans between got it and don't
A spectrum upon which one can move the needle closer to got it
With proper instruction, practice and attention.
we are a fungible brained species; most people's sense of time is not fixed by destiny

I think use it or lose it is a more appropriate platitude
Click to expand...

"Spectrums" do not work when you sit down to do a session with an 80 piece orchestra at Capitol Records studio "A", and you cost the record company thousands because your "spectrum" ain't cutting it. You had better darned well "have it" at that point, or you should find other work.
 
#106
@Bass Boy J ive been playing for 3.5 years. After year 1 I went deep into time and groove studies by taking lessons with a drummer when my bass instructor @Norm Stockton went on a summer tour.

Bassist Rich Brown time and groove studies are amazing, and he varies the patterns you can practice. I setup all his lessons in garage band, played them by clapping and tapping my chest to internalize. You can do this anywhere, in the bathroom, in the car, walking your dog, etc.

Use garage Band setup different subdivision patterns hitting the downbeat, the e, the & and the 'a'. Vary the pattern.

You’ll probably find the a is the hardest to internalize, but once you hear 16th's in your head, that a is cake since it's midway between the & and the downbeat and in your head you can hear the downbeat and upbeat by this time.

It takes time and practice, and a little expertise setting up a metronome or garage band for the initial training.

For nearly 2.5 years this comprises most of my exercises, along with practicing chord tones above and below the root for warmup in major, minor, dominant and half-diminished.

Buy the @Norm Stockton "The Worship Bass Book" and especially his groove exercises on page 188, he provides click tracks to "bury the click" so you know you are on the right subdivision. Go at various tempos so you don't learn a single feel.

Even better, reach out to Norm and do a few online lessons or if you are local go knee-to-knee with him.

Lastly, buy a phone based metronome, and download "weird metronome" for your PC and challenge yourself, start slowly and off the bass.
 
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#107
Check out scottsbasslessons.com. Scott Devine has an online course entitled “Practice Accelerator.” Do all of the exercises in Module 4. Not a bad idea to do the entire course but Module 4 is called Groove Essentials and deals specifically with timing and locking in with metronome / drum patterns. Also, as has been mentioned, the benefit of playing with a “real” drummer cannot be overstated but I think starting with Scott’s lessons will be a big help.
 
#111
mambo4 said:
Invalid Link Removed

Thus it is most often not the case that "you got it or you don't"
It's broad spectrum of ability that spans between got it and don't
A spectrum upon which one can move the needle closer to got it
With proper instruction, practice and attention.
we are a fungible brained species; most people's sense of time is not fixed by destiny

I think use it or lose it is a more appropriate platitude
Click to expand...

But even "got it" and "don't" involves rounding.

I mean, you might fit "got it" for some situations, and be nowhere close for others...and one might find themselves to be close, but not enough, for the vast majority of opportunities they encounter.

And that's fine. It's okay to have stuff in life that perhaps you'll never be very good at - doesn't mean you have to stop doing them. I mean, my first time riding a bike in the 21st century occurred last year, and through force of will, I managed to be able to clock in a 47 mile ride. Was I fast? No. In fact, I am consistently the slowest person on a road bike with drop bars that I come across - thankfully I'm a bit faster than the people on "fitness bikes". I mean, I have no illusions about ever winning a race, or being able to ride with people without them having to take it easy...but that's fine. I'm better at bass than they are...at least the folks I know, none of whom play bass. :D
 
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#112
Bass Boy J said:
Hi everyone.
I’ve been playing bass for close to three years now, and it seems no matter how many exercises I do with metronomes, drum machines, etc. I just can’t get my timing down, I’ve tried tapping my foot, moving my body to the beat of whatever song I’m playing, but just can’t my timing down. I was wondering if anyone has had this problem and has been able to fix it with some sort of exercise.
Click to expand...

I might ask if you're left-handed or right, but I should add that there exist left-handers who display right-handed characteristics (eg: true right-handers hand-writing tends to slant right, but one with LH tendencies slants left, like a true left-hander) as well as vice-versa, so there are four possible answers, not including the rest of the spectrum (insert wink).

The reason I ask is one of the puzzling things about guitar playing is "if I'm RH, why do I use my LH to do all the tricky stuff?", and the answer is that the rhythm is actually the trickiest part so it makes more inner sense to use the right hand for picking. At 3 years into playing, it's not unheard of to discover that a reverse-handed guitar (to the one you have) is a better fit.

I've only read the first and 6th pages of responses to your query so not sure if the above has already been considered, but my hope is that it may help. If not, the next thing I would recommend is making sure you understand Rudiments, as they're referred to in the Conservatory approaches. Page one here has responses from LeeNunn and DirtNap which are getting at this. Know the whole, half, quarter, eighth's etc., and how they must all be accounted for in order to satisfy the mystical, musical bean-counter. This must be done by your conscious brain, like cooking something from a recipe a few times until you don't need the recipe anymore. Then things can flow more naturally.

It's sort of ironic. You have to think, but thought, as has been said many times, many ways, is the enemy of flow. Think when you practice, try not to when you "play".

Many details of your unique position that are missing in your initial post are only a reflection of where you're at, from the perspective of more experienced players. May you feel the Light that glows on the One and the Three of the Beat MacHine!

Cheers
 
#113
Nobody mentioned video recording yourself and analyze your physical approach in both hands. You KNOW your timing could be better, so obviously you can hear that you're not tight. Now go watch yourself play against the met or drum machine or backing tracks. What's going on physically? Post the one video that exhibits the trouble. Maybe we'll see something that can help.

In my lessons, I teach my students that they ultimately become their best teacher. This becomes evident when they start self recording regularly.
 
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#116
On the subject of you either have it or you don't ... I definitely didn't have it when I started bass around 1986 at 13. I'd been playing violin in school for five years and I knew a little about reading the wrong clef. When I started bass I literally couldn't hear the bass, had no rhythm, and didn't understand harmony or theory. But I've been at it for 35 years off and on, had a few years of legit training in school and lessons, spent time playing with people and records, and learned to routinely critically assess my work. As a result I have a heck of a lot more of "it" than I started with. Maybe the most important thing is hearing what you don't have and thinking carefully about what you have to do to get it. I know there are abundant naturally gifted musicians that have everything I have now and more from the get go. More power to them. But through grinding away, listening, owning my deficits, and occasionally working really hard to prep for gigs I wasn't good enough for, I've gotten to a place where I can do what I need to to play the music I want to with people I like (good people, talented musicians, creatives). If you want to get it, and you are willing to work hard and stick with it, you can do it. And if you're willing to work harder at it than I have, it shouldn't take you 35 years.

On "use it or lose it" ... this certainly applies to chops, but I don't think it applies to listening, understanding, and feel. Sure, muscles atrophy if unused. But wisdom and judgment, once earned, are yours forever, and those matter far more than chops.
 
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#117
an example was given me by a drummer/music teacher was

think of the word B*E*A*T for every beat

where do you want to feel the pulse or accentuate within a beat?

Dead on? = focus on the space between the 'E' and the 'A'.
Push a the beat a little? Think either on the 'A' or maybe even the space between 'A' and 'T'
Lay back a little? imagine the 'E' or space between 'E' and 'B'.

These are micro beats within beats = you don't want to rush or drag perceptively, but you do want to put that accent where you want it.

Delicate balance. A lot of people like to feel a laid back feel rather than being led.
So I also imagine every beat as a train and I'm the engine = am I an engine in the front of the train leadining everything along? Or am I a pusher engine at the end? Maybe even a workhorse engine in the middle as a helper.
 
#118
Ampslut said:
I taught beginning band students for 39 years and I can tell you that people perceive time differently. This was however not the same as playing bass by ear. These youngsters were having to read notes on a page, manipulate their mouth and fingers while buzzing their lips or vibrating a reed all while keeping time with several other students. Most students would slow down when the music became more difficult and speed up when it got easier. You can imagine what that sounds like with 10 beginning band students at 8:00 am. Best advice for you would be to keep on doing what you are doing. Play along with a metronome or utube videos. Get with some friends and jam as often as you can. My time use to be a little shaky until I did an 8 year gig in a group with a organ with a built in drum machine. No timing problems now.
Click to expand...

I had a beginning band teacher like you almost 50 years ago and he taught all of us how to keep time while doing all of what you just said. All I can say is thank you to you and him for putting up with all the squeaking and honking we did on our instruments!
 
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#120
I started learning piano from the nuns at about 7 years old - then had all the joy stripped out of it at 10 by then doing 6 years of music academy exams - then took up guitar and never practised anything ever again - but I have never needed a metronome to maintain a timing. Youth is the key.
 

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