• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Tiny Tuners

mrbell321

mrbell321

Mar 26, 2012
844
117
N. Colorado
#1
Hi. My name is Tyler and I'm a bassaholic.
This is my first post(I think?), but I've been searching on here for a few days now and I haven't found a good answer to my question. It's sort of a choose your own adventure so hold on.

I've got a Bronco Bass(yes, I know) and one of the tuners has decided to eat itself, so(yes, this could be in the hardware section, but hold on) first, what do you recommend? The options I'm aware of are:
1) Replace the one bad tuner, if I can find a match. This could arguably be the cheapest, but also the lowest benefit since they're not great tuners to begin with.
2) Replace all tuners while keeping the same size. The Bronco has .325" diameter pegs which is pretty limiting, I think. There are cheap Pings, but I think this may be what Squier used in the first place. It seems the next step up might be Hipshots (at 3/8", a bit larger, but minor)which would cost about almost twice what the bass cost me. Anyone know of anything good and inexpensive? I'd prefer the elephant-ear/clover keys.
3) Replace the tuners with something more appropriately sized. Most Fender/Squiers seem to have larger pegs, but this is a problem and where the luthier corner can help.

Assuming we're at option 3. Lets see where that goes:
Most Fender machines have pegs that are are 1/2" or more. This will offset the string a fair amount.
I'd prefer to keep the strings as in line as possible between the nut and tuner, but would you?
If you want it inline, that requires drilling. I've got access to and experience with a drill press, but I've never drilled on an instrument before. Also, I don't really want to do a lot of refinishing. What is the best way to offset drill the new tuner holes? I've seen posts about plugging the current holes with dowels, but I have an idea and I want to know what you think. Lets say the new tuner requires a peg hole of 11/16" and the post is 1/2" diameter. Also,I have 15/32" hole now w/ the .325" post. To keep the string tangent the same, I will need to drill the new hole about 0.0875"(lets say 3/32) offset from the current hole. This is less than the 7/64" difference in radius between the new and current hole. So, the new hole will entirely cover the old hole. Would you, without plugging, use a forstner bit to drill the new hole? If not directly, what about sandwiching the headstock between two pieces of wood to provide some stability? I recognize this will make alignment a bit harder. I'm avoiding dowel because I don't have easy access to 15/32" dowel. I could enlarge the hole to 1/2", I suppose....


Wow, that got long... anybody still with me?
 
#2
If you weren't stuck on clover keys, I'd recommend either Schaller M4s or Gotoh GB7s. The M4s take a 7/16" hole, and the Gotohs take a 9/16" hole. They're both really good compact tuners. You can get the Gotoh-style all over eBay for cheap, but the Schaller will require less hole enlargement.

But, since you want clover keys, I think the Hipshots are your best bet.


Edit: I guess that really wasn't what you were asking. For option 3, I would find a chunk of wood - any shape - that will wedge into the tuner hole. This is just for something for the center of the forstner bit to bite into, to help keep it centered. That should work.
 
#3
I appreciate the advice in any direction. But what's a Gotoh GB7? I did a search and all I get is Hipshot GB7.

And interesting idea about wedging any chunk of wood in there. That seems better than spending my life tracking down the right sized round dowel just to drill it out.
 
#4
Enlarging and moving a tuner post hole like that can be a tricky job. Like ctmullins said, you normally have to fill the hole first, then redrill it. You can't start a Forstner bit on air, and if you try to drive a big twist drill down through there, you'll probably split the headstock.

I have a machine shop, so I usually turn up a maple plug on a lathe to fit snugly in the hole. I cut it to length, the same thickness as the headstock, and glue it in. Then I can center punch the location of the new hole centered on the old one, or move it around as needed.

If you don't have access to a lathe, you can cheat by using a birch dowel from the hardware store that's close in size, and building up the outside with masking tape or paper so that it fits snug in the existing hole. For example, use a 7/16" dowel and tape it up to make it fit the 15/32" hole. It doesn't have to be perfect, because you're going to be drilling it all away anyway. Glue it in, and try to get the top and back surfaces even with the top and back surfaces of the headstock. Then center punch it and drill the new hole.

Tip (which also applies to drilling new tuner holes in a new headstock): To avoid splintering out wood at the back as the Forstner bit goes through, first drill a small 3/32" hole at the center-punched location, all the way through the headstock. Then drill with the Forstner bit from the top, halfway down. Flip the headstock over and drill from the back until the two holes meet in the middle. The tip of the Forstner bit will follow the 3/32" guide hole and the holes will line up.

If you have access to a machine shop, it's fairly easy to make up special reamer-drills that will cleanly enlarge a hole from one size to another, keeping the location the same. I have a selection of them that I've made up over the years, just for enlarging tuner holes. I realize that's beyond the scope of this posters' question, for a one-off job. I mention it because there are many types of problems with holes that we Luthiers run into that can be easily solved with a custom counterbore or reamer. They aren't difficult or expensive to make with a lathe and a mill.
 
#5
I don't have a full machine shop, just a few fairly standard tools and, unfortunately, a lathe isn't one of them...
but that's another interesting idea with the tape and glue. I might try that.

For your reamer drills, that would not work for offsetting a hole, correct?
 
#6
I just did some measuring on my bass. The hole the broken peg came out of measures 12.1mm in one dimension, but just over 11.5mm in the other. I think a bigger problem may be that the holes are not quite evenly spaced.
Based on these tuners -- Invalid Link Removed -- which seem pretty nice and inexpensive, there MAY not be enough space between D and G. If I'm moving holes anyway, I guess it's not that big of a deal, but it means I have to offset in two dimensions. I'm thinking it may be worth it to just get tuners that fit. Too bad because I like the look of the larger keys.
 
#8
If you need wider tuner-to-tuner spacing, then plug all four holes and relocate the new ones as needed. It's all the same technique. Lay out the spacing of the D and A first, then use the same spacing out to the E and G. Usually, you mark them all the same distance from the edge, but you don't have to if it looks better some other way.
 
#10
If anyone cares, I picked up a set of Ping P2681 tuners. I haven't installed them yet, but here's what I can say so far:
They're enclosed, clover-leaf tuners that have the same footprint on the back as the originals.
Everything else is larger.
The gears are larger(12.85mm vs 10.75mm across the teeth) as is the screw that holds it in place, the string post is larger(10mm vs 8.5mm), the turning post/worm gear is larger(7mm vs 6mm), and the bushings are larger(12mm vs a little more than 10mm)

I'll have to do a bit of drilling, but I think I'm happy w/ these. I like that they seem sturdier and the posts larger, but not so much so they will send the nut-string angle way out of whack.

So, for posterity, if you're looking for replacement for Bronco bass tuners replacements that don't break the bank, take a look at Ping P2681.
 
#11
So I put the tuners on this weekend. The bushings are actually the same outside diameter, so no drilling was required. The mounting holes did not line up. Off by about 1.5X the diameter of the screw. Too close for my comfort to not plug them, so I did the toothpick solution.
A word of advice, when using chisels(to remove the excess toothpick length), aim away from yourself. I nearly removed my thumbnail with a surprisingly sharp $1 chisel from harbor freight. It was dumb and I knew it just before it happened.
Anyway, got the tuners reinstalled and it looks great. I have to reinstall the bridge, finish my pickguard and wire in the pickups before I can see where the strings really go, but like I said, I'm pretty happy w/ these tuners. I'll post pics at some point.
 
#13
And this is probably the last one...
This were my original tuners installed(actually, this is my OTHER bronco, but it's the same thing)[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
And these are the new ones installed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#14
As I type there is a Bronco winging its way to be from the 'bay.
I needed something shorter as I appear to be developing OA at the base of my thumb and sometimes I need a break from a full-size neck.
But I digress. I am thinking of a shrunken Roger Waters vibe. My first intention is to replace the pickup with a rail (OK not RW but more in scale that sticking in a P pickup) and replace the wiring. Scratchplate next. Maybe bridge, depending on how this particular beast intonates. Then its the tuners. I want elephant ears so it was interesting to find this thread.The fact the Ping ones you have found are open is a bonus. So far the only ones of a suitable size I had found were closed, like some you get on the affinity series Ps.
What are the Ping tuners like weight-wise? Do you get much neck dive with them on inplace of the originals?
 
#15
Oh, sorry... taht picture is misleading. They are closed. I just opened them to show the difference between the stock gear and the new one. If you don't mind the brass look, you could leave the covers off, I guess.

There is an open-back ping tuner set, but I don't think they'll fit in the stock holes.

As for weight, they are heavier than the originals, but I didn't measure them. Also, begin a short-scale, I think neck dive is less of an issue. I haven't noticed any at all and if stays just where I put it, but maybe that's just me. I've only ever picked up one bass at the store where I thought neckdive was maybe a problem, so I might not be the best person to ask...
BTW, is this what you mean by "shrunken Roger Waters"?
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#17
As a new Bronco owner, I'm just wondering how you feel about the Ping tuners after a few months use? I'd like tuners to be my first Bronco mod, and after enlarging the holes on my brothers Bronco for gold Gotoh tuners, I've decided I'll never do that again (got a reamer, but it only got me halfway there, then I had t get creative it round objects wrapped in sandpaper).
 
#18
I'm happy with them. They hold tune really well and I feel they're properly sized. I think some of the standard fender clovers are too large for the short scale. I like that the posts slightly larger in diameter than the original, but no so large you have to bore anything or that they change the break angle significantly. Just easier on the heavier gauge strings. The ratio is better than the stock tuners so it's easier to get the tune just right.
I would have preferred an open back style tuner, but not at the cost of having to recenter and bore stuff out or pay 4x as much.
Since i put them on, I haven't actually thought about the tuners until now, so I think that's probably a good thing.
 
#19
Super. I'll probably order a set later in the month, once my new job starts. The D tuner gets the D up to tune, but it starts to bind up when I'm a quarter step away. The G tunes super smooth, same with the E. The A tuner is just sorta iffy. Plus, Y tuners look weird on a 4 string Fender headstock. I need clovers.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back