To get a power conditioner or not??

[onlyclave]

I wonder how that Furman was able to shut down. I'll bet that a fuse was involved.

No, the SMP module will turn off when the voltage falls below 80V or exceeds 140V. Some of the conditioners have a red LED that flashes when EVS (Extreme Voltage Shutdown) is active. When the voltage returns to normal you just turn the unit off and back on and everything is good to go again.

That's a picture of a Monster Power MPAVS2000 that was in my office about 2 weeks ago when we had a brownout. A local transformer blew up or something. The meter on the far right shows the current load on the unit (there was nothing plugged into it at the time which is why it shows 0), the center meter is the amount of voltage correction being applied to the line voltage (+38.9v in this case), and the meter on the far left is the peak output voltage after correction (114.5v that day). 114.5-38.9=75.6 volts coming out of the wall. I also have a Furman Elite 15i in the office which is a home theater packaged version of one of their conditioner and it's red Extreme Voltage Shutdown LED was flashing the entire time the wall voltage was all screwed up. When the power returned to normal I just turned it off and back on and the Furman was reset with no problems. I've never seen one that has been hit with a large surge but its design makes it behave the same way. They're very tough.

 

[TigerClaw]

I have one of the cheap ones. I honestly bought it just to keep everything tidy, and to keep everything running through with one power cord. It has come in handy though, I didn't end up roasting my amp during a storm.

 

[fourstringburn]

back side, I use a 12 guage extension cord with double receptical ,one for the rack, one for the amplifier. my rack stand is a rolling rack case i use for storage also. I also use 12 guage speaker wires with angled and straight speakon connectors. cable lengths are 6 foot and when necessary, I have 21 footers.

 

[onlyclave]

You sound real knowledgeable on this subject, but as for plugging amplifiers into these things, what you say contradicts what many amplifier manufacturer's say against using them for amps. you didn't acknowledge that when you picked apart everything I posted!

Even furman self acknowledges this by putting out a product called the Power Factor for this very reason, to provide the extra amperage needed when an amp demands it. here is a paste from Furmans own web : Power Factor Technology
Power Factor Technology supplies 45+ amps of instantaneous reserve current, on demand, for power starved amplifiers.

I was sold on this product but wanted another opinion due to it's expense. As I was told by some in the industry like Bob at QSC audio, your better off plugging straight into the wall, so I decided against this purchasiing this product being I run an 3000 watt power amp driven by my less higher end Ampeg preamps and behringer compressor/limiters.

Well, do you think an amp manufacturer would bring a product to market and then admit that yeah, it sounds better when you use Brand X Power Box with it? That's like Ford telling you the Mustang really kicks ass especially with a BMW 5 liter engine installed into it.

Furman power factor correction does supply up to 45 amps of instantaneous current to power starved amps, but for a couple of milliseconds only. Then the cap is discharged and you're back to drawing whatever the amp normally draws. The difference with Power Factor is in the sound of the attack transient only.

 

[fourstringburn]

Switch the GK with a genz and you have my rig haha(nice rig btw!).Though Not gonna lie...prolly gonna try out a conditioner...just for my rack gear...and to fill tha last space in my rack

Worst case scenario...dont like and sell it.

You know Genz and GK don't recommend power conditioners for their amps either...neither do I! But it isn't a sin to use one for other gear. I have seen some just for around the same cost as a power strip.

Not to put your gear down, on the contrary, it very nice, but it is minimal compared to some. In your case I could see just using a power strip. A power conditioner does give you lights for your rack and some better ones give you a volt meter, handy rear rack light and a front panel outlet too. So I think they are versatile but are not necessary, I use one because I have a a good size rack setup and I like the convenience and features.

You make a good point about the outlet testers checking ground and polarity,that's something power conditioners don't do. I think I'll carry one with me from now on. Thanks for the tip.

 

[LaklandBass]

Well, do you think an amp manufacturer would bring a product to market and then admit that yeah, it sounds better when you use Brand X Power Box with it? That's like Ford telling you the Mustang really kicks ass especially with a BMW 5 liter engine installed into it.

Furman power factor correction does supply up to 45 amps of instantaneous current to power starved amps, but for a couple of milliseconds only. Then the cap is discharged and you're back to drawing whatever the amp normally draws. The difference with Power Factor is in the sound of the attack transient only.

Very well put. I can tell you from experience that a line conditioner DOES make a difference in performance.
Should you plug your poweramp into it? no.
Should you plug your pre or compressor etc into it? yes
will you hear a difference in a bar while playing live? no.

I own one for my 2 channel audio system. When recording at home or in the studio I plug my mixer or preamp into it. Personally Id say that unless you own an audio system or record alot it really isnt worth it. I cant imagine somebody would see an improvement at a live gig. If thats the situation of the OP id suggest getting a furman power strip for the rack simply for convenience and the nifty lights.

 

[fourstringburn]

Well, do you think an amp manufacturer would bring a product to market and then admit that yeah, it sounds better when you use Brand X Power Box with it? That's like Ford telling you the Mustang really kicks ass especially with a BMW 5 liter engine installed into it.

Furman power factor correction does supply up to 45 amps of instantaneous current to power starved amps, but for a couple of milliseconds only. Then the cap is discharged and you're back to drawing whatever the amp normally draws. The difference with Power Factor is in the sound of the attack transient only.

your first question, answer is no. But Furman admits your amp will sound better with that expensive power factor for the same reason, to make furman products sound better. I love your analogies laced with symantics.

So the power factor is useless too after the capacitors discharge bringing you back to square one, you should have kept your amp plugged into the source to start with. Your amp will not be power starved...you need to debate with the engineers who developed these amplifiers and power conditioners, not us!

BY THE WAY, DID YOU NOTICE THE FURMAN POWER CONDITIONER IN MY GEAR PICS ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE!

 

[agedhorse]

Power Factor Correction is a feature of some Furman power conditioners which is indicated in the model number by "PF". It is essentially a 1 farad stiffening capacitor inside of the box which can provide an instantaneous 45 amps of current for attack transients. Capacitors will charge and discharge faster than the wall can provide current so this in essence lowers the line resistance. It is only useful on large attack transients. After the first couple of milliseconds the capacitor is discharged and there is no more effect, but then after the attack you do not need that current reserve. This is the same idea as the big 1 and 2 farad stiffening caps that have been used in large car audio systems for a long time. They make the bass hit much tighter.

Ummm, a plain capacitor can store DC but not AC, so your analogy has no relation to the claim. Every time the incoming AC changes polarity the cap discharges and then recharges... and a large capacitor across the line will exhibit a lot of leakage. No way you can put a 1 farad cap across the line. It would most certainly trip the breaker as it will look like a short circuit to the AC source. Besides, at 120 volts RMS, that would be the size of a small refrigerator. Calculate the amount of energy storage required to deliver 45 amps at 120 volts RMS for even a cycle or two (that's 20mSec, not a couple mSec) and you will see that a big piece of this claim is missing. IF a fairly large cap (not 1 farad) was used in conjunction with an inductor, the resulting resonant circuit can store energy (the basis of ferro-resonant voltage regulators) but I do not think this is what is going on.

Well, if you look at the definition of an amplfier, its job is to take a signal and make it bigger, whether it's a bass guitar note or EM and RF noise from the power line. It all come out of the speaker terminals amplified.

This is absolutely not true. All proper amplifiers amplify signal at the signal input but reject noise from the power supply. This spec is called the PSSR (or power supply rejection ratio) and all amplifier manufacturers pay attentiion to this spec when designing their products. This is in addition to all the filtering and grounding elements of the power supply design.

If you're using the right conditioner then you can plug your amplifier into it too with no detriment. The Furman stuff is great and many soundmen swear by it for all of their gear. Much higher end audio gear than an Ampeg amp gets plugged into conditioners every day to protect it and improve the sound quality.

I think there's some important bits of information missing regarding the selection and operation of large amps with power conditioning devices in general. We recommend against using our large amps with such devices due to the potential problems that can be encountered using products with undefined performance characteristics. Especially active voltage regulating devices such as auto-tap changing autotransformers due to damaging hunting potential when used with large dynamic (rapidly changing) loads.

 

[agedhorse]

Well, do you think an amp manufacturer would bring a product to market and then admit that yeah, it sounds better when you use Brand X Power Box with it? That's like Ford telling you the Mustang really kicks ass especially with a BMW 5 liter engine installed into it.

Proper amps are designed and tested to power line transient specifications that are well defined by international standards (generally 2.5kV pulses, repetative for a defined time) as part of required safety testing to receive a CE, UL, CSA, TUV, CB Scheme type mark (depemding on the region it's being approved for). This is quite different from a marketing claim as the labs are internationally certified. Speaking for our amps, they are designed to perform best plugged directly into the wall, into a properly grounded (earthed for our European friends) solid, unfiltered and unadulterated branch circuit. I can't speak for other manufacturers.

Furman power factor correction does supply up to 45 amps of instantaneous current to power starved amps, but for a couple of milliseconds only. Then the cap is discharged and you're back to drawing whatever the amp normally draws. The difference with Power Factor is in the sound of the attack transient only.

ANY 2mSec "blip" delivered to the power supply of any power amp will be treated as NOISE, and the power transformer and DC rail caps, along with other filtering will essentially bypass this to ground and the resulting TINY bit of energy will be gone. Just like a 2mSec dropout of the AC line will not affect the amp's operation in the slightest as the power supply reserve (which is significant) will carry the amp through like nothing happened. It works both ways.

 

[fourstringburn]

I wonder if ONLYCLAVE has enough symantical analogies left to dispute Agedhorse technical prowess...

 

[LaklandBass]

I also wonder if most could simply accept that there is a logical reason the entire audio industry and community advises against putting a power amp through a conditioner.

 

[rbonner]

Here's my dollar ninety-eight on this whole thing and why I dumped power units out of my rack.

First I went out and shopped hard and opened up the furman and Monster Power both of the MP Pro 3500 size units.

I ended up buying 4 MP units and then sold three of them. Here's why.

I liked the sequencer in there, it turned on the units I wanted first and the the power amps last and turned them off in sequence.

THat unit monitored line voltage and current on the LED display. This is how I knew where my line voltage was going and how much current my 4PRO's were drawing.

They were rated 15 amps, and a 4PRO drew 15.4 amps. Enough that it didn't blow, but if you plugged anything in and hit an open resonant note POOF it would trip out. This unit did brown outs and over voltages and over currents.

It also had coils in there to act as a RFI block and it also had simple transorb thingies in there to short on a huge spike.

In the end, the units didnt work for me. I do now have a Furman Sequencer to power up and down the 4PRO's and it has a basic spike protection.

I think the best thing to put in your rack is just a quality power strip. Anything else is just a waste of money.

B-String's problem with lightning and you are always at risk playing anywhere in a T-Storm. He stated they shorted out several power strips... Then they did work. I would pull out three more and keep playing.

I kept the last 3500 to put on my stereo and TV system.

BOB

 

[billfitzmaurice]

soooo just to be sure..plug my big amp into the wall and the rest into the conditioner??I was kinda weiry about plugging my main head into the conditioner for the start.
Right on thx!!

No. Plug your amp and everything else into a heavy duty power strip, 20A rated, and forget about the silly 'power conditioner' entirely. It's snake oil. If you must throw your money away send it to me, I'll put it to good use.

 

[countrybassist]

I use a Monster Power 2500. I know nothing about electronics so I don't know if all the talk about it creating "clean power" is true or not, but it sure is easier to have everything already plugged in especially if you have alot in your rack.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I know nothing about electronics so I don't know if all the talk about it creating "clean power" is true.

Your not knowing is what allows marketing campaigns for snake oil to succeed. Just as you can't cheat an honest man you can't hornswoggle an educated consumer.

 

[onlyclave]

Proper amps are designed and tested to power line transient specifications that are well defined by international standards (generally 2.5kV pulses, repetative for a defined time) as part of required safety testing to receive a CE, UL, CSA, TUV, CB Scheme type mark (depemding on the region it's being approved for). This is quite different from a marketing claim as the labs are internationally certified. Speaking for our amps, they are designed to perform best plugged directly into the wall, into a properly grounded (earthed for our European friends) solid, unfiltered and unadulterated branch circuit. I can't speak for other manufacturers.

Not to belabor the point and get into a pissing match, but in your engineering lab do you develop your amplifier designs and test them by plugging them straight into the municipal power grid or do you have those lab-grade power supplies for controlled measurement and testing?

 

[David Jayne]

Just as you can't cheat an honest man you can't hornswoggle an educated consumer.

I LOVE that word. Haven't seen or heard it in awhile, thanks Bill! Hornswoggle!!!!

 

[bmc]

37 years of gigging without a power conditioner and never having gear failure.

Have I been missing something?

 

[OtisRocks]

In my experience the only way to get truly effective power conditioning is to use a dual conversion UPS. Anything less is just a glorified power bar.

"The dual conversion UPS system converts the incoming AC supply to DC. The DC power is used to
charge the batteries and supply the inverter. The inverter then inverts the DC power into AC power that, in turn, is
supplied to the load. This dual conversion isolates the line from AC supply and allows for wide input power variations
on both frequency and voltage." - alwayson.com

I used to spec these into high end robotics systems to ensure that power line fluctuations did not cause expensive crashes.

These units are generally expensive and heavy and are (in my opinion) overkill for live music applications. In most cases the power supply in your amp will provide sufficient "conditioning" (as already stated by aged horse).

However, a dual conversion UPS might be a worthwhile investment in a recording studio with "dirty" mains power.

 

[aborgman]

They are mostly hype, and the purpose of them is to separate you from more of your money than a simple rack mount power strip will.

Bingo.