• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

To get a power conditioner or not??

I think the issue here is the application that these conditioners are being used it. Do you want it for your live rig or for recording/home use? Also do you want it simply for protection or do you expect an improvement in performance?
Now very true there is alot of snake oil being tossed about in the world but this doesnt mean that a conditioner is useless. I just think that the advantage of one is with a 2 channel audio system or in a studio environment.
I record with a Yamaha board into a Mac tower. We tried it with everything into the wall and with everything through my conditioner. The advantage was very clear with the conditioner. This "advantage" however wouldnt be heard when playing live but it sure did clean up our recording.
To add to this we record in my townhouse or my singers apartment so Im sure that our situation allows us a larger margin for improvement than some. Regardless theres a point of diminishing returns with everything so I would keep that in mind.
 
I think the issue here is the application that these conditioners are being used it. Do you want it for your live rig or for recording/home use? Also do you want it simply for protection or do you expect an improvement in performance?
Now very true there is alot of snake oil being tossed about in the world but this doesnt mean that a conditioner is useless. I just think that the advantage of one is with a 2 channel audio system or in a studio environment.
I record with a Yamaha board into a Mac tower. We tried it with everything into the wall and with everything through my conditioner. The advantage was very clear with the conditioner. This "advantage" however wouldnt be heard when playing live but it sure did clean up our recording.
To add to this we record in my townhouse or my singers apartment so Im sure that our situation allows us a larger margin for improvement than some. Regardless theres a point of diminishing returns with everything so I would keep that in mind.

With a studio installation, you're in the perfect situation. Hook up everything, fire up the Mac, and measure the noise floor using spectrum analysis software. Now plug into the power conditioner and repeat.

I always check my installations for spurious noise before proceeding to record something.
 
Come to the desert in the summer Monsoon. You can borrow my amp after yours takes a spike from lightning. No not BS. The #2 band in town scrambled with the rest of the bands in town to borrow equipment so they could finish their contract. We played the same night, lost two cheap power strips, plugged the overage into a couple of existing Furmans.

+1
I agree a surge protector is a good thing, however, I lived and gigged in Kansas, for years. You cannot lecture me about lightening, I assure you. There were nights when the sky was simply a continuous overhead network of bolts, unceasing for 10 hours...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz...:eek:
 
I don't know if it's interesting, but for my home network I've switched to power line ethernet. It works by sending the ethernet over the powerlines between the zero crossings. It has great performance. And harder for the laptop hackers parked in cars to crack into the network.

Two things I've noticed,
First even the cheap $15 power strips from Home Depot that mention "filtering" have enough filtering to block the signal for these things. Plug into the strip they don't send the signal through. Plug straight into the wall and they work fine.

There are some power strips for $2.95 that still provide surge protection (MOV), but no filtering that allow the ethernet signal to pass through.

Second, absolutely none of my gear: amps, mixers, pre-amps, Keyboards, TV's, phones, stereos, ... are effected at all by the powerline ethernet signal being sent. There is no extra noise in anything. Nor do any other musicians who come over notice any extra noise in their amps. The ethernet signal is getting through - as ethernet is working, so there is actual powerline noise that the power line ethernet is introducing, yet nothing in the house is affected by this extra "noise". And plenty of stuff is plugged directly in with no filtered power strip.

Now I actually haven't measured any noise floors, because I just don't hear anything. Maybe later I'll try to measure and see if any noise floors change with these plugged in or not.
 
p26536h-f4e20e1c6c83a9a2e8b2fdc839f21c5f.jpg


$30
 
I just love the inflamitory "snake oil" being thrown around? Just like the "snake oil" of plug you amp directly into the wall, on the same circuit (15 or 20 amp) as your PA and the guitarists amps and all the Bar's neon signs and plasma TVs and sat. recievers and video games.....god only know what else they hooked up to that circuit ;)
This is real world not the lab? :)

What else? The french frying vat..

Bar power has to be the worst on the planet, around here anyway. BOB
 
So to clarify the above statement, if your amp needs more instantaneous current that what the wall receptacle can supply and the Power Factor Correction (tm) which is essentially a stiffening capacitor is present to provide that instantaneous current, the amp's own power supply treat that as noise and filters it? So the amplifiers own power supply current limits itself?

Due to the inherent averaging nature of amplifier power supplies (energy storage in bulk charge caps), the talk of 2mSec peak current reserve is complete and utter nonsense. The time constants in all power amps on the market are tens or hundreds of times longer than 2mSec. This is a solution to a problem that does not exist in power amplifiers, and can not be corrected in any remotely meaningful way by 2mSec of any kind of energy storage. This is engineering-speak, not marketing-speak. There really is a difference ;)


"At the center of the Elite-15 PF i is our unique transient Power Factor Technology circuit. For the first time, low-level analog,
digital, and video components are not modulated or distorted via the power amplifier’s extreme AC current demands. Further,
the power amplifier sees a highly filtered, extremely low-impedance supply of AC power. The Elite-15 PF i, in fact, has in
excess of 3 Amps of continuous current reserve (over 45 amps peak charge) for the most extreme peak power demands. This
technology enables power amplifiers and powered subwoofers to operate at peak efficiency, reaching levels of performance
previously unattainable."

That statement is from the manual from the Furman Elite 15 PFi which is in their home theater series of conditioners. Garth Powell is the senior engineer at Furman who designed it and wrote the manual. Would the amplifier disagree with what is being sent to it from the conditioner to allow it to operate better because of noise?

The amplifier can not and will not benefit from something that is so tiny (if it even exists) and in fact my engineering background tells me that the amplifier is likely to suffer in performance due to ANY added series resistance/reactance that the series filter componenets introduce. One look at the transfer curve will tell what the LOSSES are at any range of load currents. There will be losses as there can be no resistance less than zero (the resistance of an IDEAL device) in between the source and the load.

In another post you told us what your engineering lab's power supply situation is and for you it's controlled and controllable so that you can develop new amplifiers and then publish the specs of them based on your controlled situation. As if the rest of us could be so lucky to have those kinds of controlled power in a house, garage, bar, or outdoor festival! Inconsistent power and conditions yield inconsistent results, so the specs on amplifiers are really only best case scenario under controlled conditions. Having your gear plugged into a good power conditioner or regulator gives you a chance to try to control the uncontrollable and unknown.

The reason for using controlled and controllable power nis to determine exactly what the results of different circuit design choices are without any changes introduced due to other outside factors. Otherwise, making a change is a component may result in an erroneous conclusion if there was also a change in line conditions. This is (and should be) standard operating procedure in any design lab. It also allows me to determine any negative and positive effects of various power differences and faults, improving sound quality and reliability. There's a lot of areas that we investigate when developing amplifier products. Plugging into a power conditioner offers no advantage if it doesn't do what you are led to think it does. Unfortunately, most dont, and some can do considerable harm.

Certifications from UL, CE, etc. to my knowledge are to prove that the device won't kill someone or burst into flame when plugged into the wall, but how do those organizations measure and certify performance and sound quality?
Safety is part of the certification, but there are many components to certification process and each certificating agency looks at different things depending on the standard they are certifying to, and the country.

CE encompases many elements, including safety, immunity to received RFI/EMI, AC line disturbance performance, limits of permissable transmitted EMI/RFI, mechanical aspects, thermal aspects etc. These standards do not address sound quality but some do indeed contain some performance criteria.

It should be noted that all of these agencies test a wide variety of products to many different types of tests, mechanical, chemical and structural depending on the type of product is is. For example, tires are tested to and carry agency ratings for completely different things than your bass amp would be tested to, for example.

Thanks for your response.
You are most welcome.
 
I agree it won't fix it all! Also agree it won't totally "clean up" line noise. I have found in 40 years of playing it can reduce some of the noise that the equipment fails to reject on it's own. While a spike rejection of 2.5KV is wonderful, it can't help with a 15KV to 40KV spike from an electrical storm. I suppose we could ignore all those warnings to unplug everything from the wall during those storms?
I have degrees also, I also am wise enough to live in the real world. Don't worry about spike protection, I could use the repair work.

Most power conditioners do little to protect from real lightning spikes. 40kV will punch through anything (including wire insulation) except a spark-gap type device and typically contains enough momentary energy to do some real damage to anything connected, including less than "real" lightning arrestors. These arrestors typically limit the let-thru voltage to significantly less than 2.5kV, which is (one reason) why 1.5-2.5kV is used in the certification tests.

Also, inductance in the ground circuit really limits the effectness of consumer grade "lightning protectors", generally real protectors are installed at the service enterence switchgear where the eufer ground point is located, or a major subpanel with a solid, low resistance, low reactance path to earth ground.

The design of arrestors is very complicated and is a balance of reliability, repeatability, protection effectiveness, and size-practicality. I have engineering books from the early 1900's that go into great detail the theories of operation and approach depending on the application. Facinating stuff.
 
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
All I know is all the equipment I played at this particular venue failed. Would play for 30 min. then crackling sound then stop altogether. I take it all home and they worked fine. The list is; 2 heads a combo and a floor multi-effects unit. I brought in my rack with a power conditioner and everything worked normal. I plugged each item into the conditioner and it works fine.
 
What agedhorse and billfitzmaurice have been saying.

Power "conditioners" are really an example of "better sound through marketing." If a power "conditioner" really does improve the performance of your equipment, it speaks very poorly of the quality of your gear.
 
All I know is all the equipment I played at this particular venue failed. Would play for 30 min. then crackling sound then stop altogether. I take it all home and they worked fine. The list is; 2 heads a combo and a floor multi-effects unit. I brought in my rack with a power conditioner and everything worked normal. I plugged each item into the conditioner and it works fine.

On the second time, did you try it without the power conditioner after you had everything working? Because if you didn't then you can't say that it was the power conditioner that soleved the situation. Also you can't be sure that a power conditioner would have made a difference on the first time. There are so many variables that can cause problems at a venue.
 
On the second time, did you try it without the power conditioner after you had everything working? Because if you didn't then you can't say that it was the power conditioner that soleved the situation. Also you can't be sure that a power conditioner would have made a difference on the first time. There are so many variables that can cause problems at a venue.

Absolutely correct. The scenario presented suggests something far more significant than what any "power conditioner" could possible help with.

More thorough troubleshooting might turn up a loose connection that just happened to work "ok" when the op used a power conditioner.
 
Absolutely correct. The scenario presented suggests something far more significant than what any "power conditioner" could possible help with.

More thorough troubleshooting might turn up a loose connection that just happened to work "ok" when the op used a power conditioner.


Or, something was turned off, reducing the load on the circuit that was powering their gear...



- georgestrings
 
Or, something was turned off, reducing the load on the circuit that was powering their gear...



- georgestrings

It's possible that there was excessive voltage drop during the times that the amps shut down. This is generally due to inadequate wiring capacity and is a fault that a typically power conditioner can not magicly fix.