soooo just to be sure..plug my big amp into the wall and the rest into the conditioner??I was kinda weiry about plugging my main head into the conditioner for the start.
Right on thx!!
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To get a power conditioner or not??
- Thread starter I play metal
- Start date
soooo just to be sure..plug my big amp into the wall and the rest into the conditioner??I was kinda weiry about plugging my main head into the conditioner for the start.
Right on thx!!
I do sub to the idea of high power amps and conditioners don't mix. Our PA amps survived the lightning spike just fine on a cheap spike protector.
It's not to say plugging into a power conditioner will harm your amp, but your amp may not be running at it's full potential with the power conditioner limiting it's max current draw.
Basically, the more power output you want out of your amp, the more power draw input your amp needs! Plug your amp into the source and use your power conditioner for your rack gear! your amplifier is circuit breaker protected anyway...
No. Power conditioners are just surge protectors, with filters that "condition" incoming power by removing line noise. The only way they can "protect" from under or over powering is if they (1) have a display that shows incoming voltage so YOU can monitor when it gets too low or high, then turn off your gear YOURSELF, (2) have a warning light for such a condition, then YOU turn off your gear YOURSELF, or (3) have some type of under/over voltage shutoff circuitry, which would make it more expensive.
The surge protection only kicks in when there is a power spike, not gradual, slight power fluctuations.
For constant 120V, you want a VOLTAGE REGULATOR, which can cost $500 and up.
Yup - snake oil, to separate the uninformed from their money... Get a decent outlet strip with surge protection, short power cords, and an outlet tester - and you're as well equipped as you'll ever need to be...
- georgestrings
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
IMO, and IME, lots of misinformation here guys...
1. The industry has a very (VERY) loose definition of what a power conditioner or protector or whatever they choose to call their device actually is or exactly what it does.
2. Most are UL listed for 15 amp loads only, protected buy a 15 amp thermal breaker and switched by a 15 amp rated switch. Putting a big amp or two on these can destroy the switches because most (if not all) switches are not protected by arc supression capacitors and the contacts can weld shut.
3. Most of these devices are worthless protecting against any real lightening strike nearby. Aside from too much inductance in the ground path (lightning is a very high frequency, high voltage signal), there's not enough energy dissipation in the shunt protectors to prevent them from being blown to bits.
4. The typical "protectors" being discussed here do not protect against any kind of low or high voltage condition, regardless of what's "implied".
5. The typical "protector" has very limited spike protection, and even less surge protection. The spike let-through voltage is typically equal to about 200-220 volts peak.
6. The noise filtering is pretty much worthless, and duplicates the filtering in many amps on the market today. Folks that think they make a difference on audio frequencies are probably hearing something different... most are effective at radio frequencies but there's plenty of this already in quality amps.
7. All amps that meet the CE standards already should contain the necessary protection to allow them to survive 2.5kV voltage spikes (both power line and to chassis ground), resist RFI (conducted and radiated), and have been tested by an accredited lab. I know for a fact that all of our amps have passed the battery of required tests.
8. Voltage regulating conditioners (much more expensive and heavier) in general should not be used with larger power amps because under some heavy dynamic conditions, the voltage regulating devices can hunt and oscillate. Some self-destruct and may take the amp out in the process.
Used as glorified power strips, they can be handy and in general can't hurt, but as a consumer it's important to be educated anytime a device promises something that's usually too good to be true and can't really be proven. Especially when there is a significant profit incentive involved, impartiallity is almost impossible.
1. The industry has a very (VERY) loose definition of what a power conditioner or protector or whatever they choose to call their device actually is or exactly what it does.
2. Most are UL listed for 15 amp loads only, protected buy a 15 amp thermal breaker and switched by a 15 amp rated switch. Putting a big amp or two on these can destroy the switches because most (if not all) switches are not protected by arc supression capacitors and the contacts can weld shut.
3. Most of these devices are worthless protecting against any real lightening strike nearby. Aside from too much inductance in the ground path (lightning is a very high frequency, high voltage signal), there's not enough energy dissipation in the shunt protectors to prevent them from being blown to bits.
4. The typical "protectors" being discussed here do not protect against any kind of low or high voltage condition, regardless of what's "implied".
5. The typical "protector" has very limited spike protection, and even less surge protection. The spike let-through voltage is typically equal to about 200-220 volts peak.
6. The noise filtering is pretty much worthless, and duplicates the filtering in many amps on the market today. Folks that think they make a difference on audio frequencies are probably hearing something different... most are effective at radio frequencies but there's plenty of this already in quality amps.
7. All amps that meet the CE standards already should contain the necessary protection to allow them to survive 2.5kV voltage spikes (both power line and to chassis ground), resist RFI (conducted and radiated), and have been tested by an accredited lab. I know for a fact that all of our amps have passed the battery of required tests.
8. Voltage regulating conditioners (much more expensive and heavier) in general should not be used with larger power amps because under some heavy dynamic conditions, the voltage regulating devices can hunt and oscillate. Some self-destruct and may take the amp out in the process.
Used as glorified power strips, they can be handy and in general can't hurt, but as a consumer it's important to be educated anytime a device promises something that's usually too good to be true and can't really be proven. Especially when there is a significant profit incentive involved, impartiallity is almost impossible.
You make good points but consider this. If you already have a rack, then I would recommend one. If you don't, then a good power strip as you say is just fine.
A good power conditioner has a voltage meter on it which shows constant voltage of the power source you can monitor at all times so an outlet tester is not needed. So this is really better than a outlet tester wouldn't you say?
Power conditioners usually have short cords about 6-8 feet. Just long enough to plug into a extension cord if needed.
So were not really un-informed as you say, and these products are not snake oil, were just being practical with the equipment we already have and were giving advice to their proper usage of what we have learned. That is, they are for low voltage rack equipment, not amplifiers!
Wow...alrighty I understood most of that.Thx Aged!!
And yeah I was planning on plugging the GBE 1200 into the wall directly.Pretty much just was planning on getting it for cosmetics and rack cleandlieness really.
And yeah I was planning on plugging the GBE 1200 into the wall directly.Pretty much just was planning on getting it for cosmetics and rack cleandlieness really.
I would like to know the reason for this. Some power conditioners do choke the current at the receptacles which is why they will have some of the outlets labeled "Ultra High Current" which = "Least Amount of Filtering".
Maintaining a steady voltage is the job of a voltage regulator. It maintains 120v +/- 1v (or whatever its design tolerances are) within a certain capture range, eg between 84v - 140v the regulator will correct that voltage to a constant 120 +/- SD. This is usually done with a voltage comparator and a variac or autoformer. When your amp demands more amperage it draws it up to the limits of the circuit is connected to, be it 15A, 20A or more. Overdrawing the current will trip the circuit breaker to prevent a fire as the wiring will heat up as more current passes through it. If you need 20A capacity, buy a conditioner rated for 20A.
Power Factor Correction is a feature of some Furman power conditioners which is indicated in the model number by "PF". It is essentially a 1 farad stiffening capacitor inside of the box which can provide an instantaneous 45 amps of current for attack transients. Capacitors will charge and discharge faster than the wall can provide current so this in essence lowers the line resistance. It is only useful on large attack transients. After the first couple of milliseconds the capacitor is discharged and there is no more effect, but then after the attack you do not need that current reserve. This is the same idea as the big 1 and 2 farad stiffening caps that have been used in large car audio systems for a long time. They make the bass hit much tighter.
Well, if you look at the definition of an amplfier, its job is to take a signal and make it bigger, whether it's a bass guitar note or EM and RF noise from the power line. It all come out of the speaker terminals amplified.
If you're using the right conditioner then you can plug your amplifier into it too with no detriment. The Furman stuff is great and many soundmen swear by it for all of their gear. Much higher end audio gear than an Ampeg amp gets plugged into conditioners every day to protect it and improve the sound quality.
Oh, and for plugging your stuff into a cheap spike strip and extension cord, check out this video to see what happens.
I don't work for Furman, but I've dealt with their gear for years as well as Monster Power (trash), APC (real garbage), Richard Gray's Power Company (snake oil RF choke in a box), Panamax (pretty blue lights), Shunyata Research (expensive) and Equitech.
If you really want a good conditioner get a Furman PL-Plus C.
Actually, I already have a rack, and wouldn't waste my money on one... Regarding an outlet tester - I was referring to one that identifies faulty or reversed ground or neutral, not a voltage tester... Tell ya what - I've gigged for 30 years with both tube and SS amps, and have never used a power "conditioner" - and have never blown an amp... I have refused to play at a venue that had a faulty or reversed ground or neutral - that's a matter of safety for you and your equipment...
When I talked about short cords, I was talking about 1' power cords into a surge strip - that'll tidy up the back of a rack as well as any conditioner...
I'll stick with the snake oil designation - 25+ years as an electrician and electronics tech is what I'm basing it on - and any EE will say the same thing...
- georgestrings
Here's a few pics of my current rack:
That, and an outlet tester is all you need...
- georgestrings
That, and an outlet tester is all you need...
- georgestrings
No, I wouldn't say that - because they won't identify a faulty or reversed ground or neutral - and besides, are you really going to monitor voltage while you're playing??? If so, at what high and low numbers are you going to "pull the plug"???
- georgestrings
Here's a few pics of my current rack:
That, and an outlet tester is all you need...
- georgestrings
Switch the GK with a genz and you have my rig haha(nice rig btw!).Though Not gonna lie...prolly gonna try out a conditioner...just for my rack gear...and to fill tha last space in my rack
Worst case scenario...dont like and sell it.
Switch the GK with a genz and you have my rig haha(nice rig btw!).Though Not gonna lie...prolly gonna try out a conditioner...just for my rack gear...and to fill tha last space in my rack
Worst case scenario...dont like and sell it.
Hey, do whatever you want - it's your money...
That wireless receiver and tuner have been racked and powered that way for probably 150 gigs - no problems yet, and just a surge strip protecting them - FWIW...
BTW, thanks - and here's what that rack is usually pushing:
- georgestrings
PS - I'd love to have that Genz rig you're sporting!!!
Yeah nice rig man for sure!!
And I hear and see were your coming from...never used a conditioner once.Done hundreds of gigs without a prob.
But like I say...need to fill a space and add to the casino affect of my rack hah(half jkin)...but really curious to try it out with the rest of the rack gear in terms of hiss,etc.
And I hear and see were your coming from...never used a conditioner once.Done hundreds of gigs without a prob.
But like I say...need to fill a space and add to the casino affect of my rack hah(half jkin)...but really curious to try it out with the rest of the rack gear in terms of hiss,etc.
Hey, do whatever you want - it's your money...
That wireless receiver and tuner have been racked and powered that way for probably 150 gigs - no problems yet, and just a surge strip protecting them - FWIW...
BTW, thanks - and here's what that rack is usually pushing:
- georgestrings
PS - I'd love to have that Genz rig you're sporting!!!
You sound real knowledgeable on this subject, but as for plugging amplifiers into these things, what you say contradicts what many amplifier manufacturer's say against using them for amps. you didn't acknowledge that when you picked apart everything I posted!
Even furman self acknowledges this by putting out a product called the Power Factor for this very reason, to provide the extra amperage needed when an amp demands it. here is a paste from Furmans own web : Power Factor Technology
Power Factor Technology supplies 45+ amps of instantaneous reserve current, on demand, for power starved amplifiers.
I was sold on this product but wanted another opinion due to it's expense. As I was told by some in the industry like Bob at QSC audio, your better off plugging straight into the wall, so I decided against this purchasiing this product being I run an 3000 watt power amp driven by my less higher end Ampeg preamps and behringer compressor/limiters.
