To get a power conditioner or not??

[billfitzmaurice]

However, a dual conversion UPS might be a worthwhile investment in a recording studio with "dirty" mains power.

Most studios use a transformer balanced AC line that connects to the balanced 110v-0-110v street source and gives a 55v-0-55v output. This eliminates common mode noise, which accounts for the bulk of whatever noise there is present on AC lines.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

No snake oil here, it works. But it's way beyond what anyone needs for live sound applications.

 

[David Jayne]

In my experience the only way to get truly effective power conditioning is to use a dual conversion UPS.

Yup. If you want REAL brownout protection, which if I'm not mistaken is the usual cause of 'bad power' amp damage. HOWEVER some of the more expensive 'conditioners' will shut your gear off in the event of a dangerous brownout.

 

[GearHeadBassMan]

I got a power conditioner because I found a good one in the back of a music store for $30 and at the time I had six different power cords that I needed to plug in, so it brought a lot of tidyness to my rack and cut down on set-up time, which was worth the money for me.

Honestly, a good $20 power strip (from the Home Depot or similar) will have a lot of the same features as the $200 furmans.

Don't skimp on it though, either way you go, it's important to have some sort of protection so you dont kiss your $700 amp goodbye because you wanted to save a little bit of money.

 

[GaryM]

37 years of gigging without a power conditioner and never having gear failure.

Have I been missing something?

Not living in the USA perhaps? I've not come across people in the UK worrying about power unless they need more than is available from a standard wall socket (about 3 kW).

 

[agedhorse]

Not to belabor the point and get into a pissing match, but in your engineering lab do you develop your amplifier designs and test them by plugging them straight into the municipal power grid or do you have those lab-grade power supplies for controlled measurement and testing?

At my shop, I have a 12kV to 120/240 transformer about 50 feet from my shop, and that feeds my shop distribution panel. I plug directly into the grid, about as direct as one can get. No power conditioners, no filters, no pretty lights.

I do have a 2kVA variac that I use for low line and high line tests, and we send all of our products out to an NTL for safety and EMI/RFI testing. That's where they expose the unit to 2.5kV power line spikes and RFI. They must pass these tests before they can be certified.

 

[agedhorse]

I got a power conditioner because I found a good one in the back of a music store for $30

The best kind

 

[agedhorse]

In my experience the only way to get truly effective power conditioning is to use a dual conversion UPS. Anything less is just a glorified power bar.

"The dual conversion UPS system converts the incoming AC supply to DC. The DC power is used to
charge the batteries and supply the inverter. The inverter then inverts the DC power into AC power that, in turn, is
supplied to the load. This dual conversion isolates the line from AC supply and allows for wide input power variations
on both frequency and voltage." - alwayson.com

I used to spec these into high end robotics systems to ensure that power line fluctuations did not cause expensive crashes.

These units are generally expensive and heavy and are (in my opinion) overkill for live music applications. In most cases the power supply in your amp will provide sufficient "conditioning" (as already stated by aged horse).

However, a dual conversion UPS might be a worthwhile investment in a recording studio with "dirty" mains power.

This is one type of powr conditioner that is really different and effective, PROVIDED it's a true sine wave type inverter. Otherwise, on a modified sine wave, the transition points can be the source of noise let-thru. Generally, they are overkill for the applications we are discussing here.

 

[B-string]

I just love the inflamitory "snake oil" being thrown around? Just like the "snake oil" of plug you amp directly into the wall, on the same circuit (15 or 20 amp) as your PA and the guitarists amps and all the Bar's neon signs and plasma TVs and sat. recievers and video games.....god only know what else they hooked up to that circuit
This is real world not the lab?

 

[JimmyM]

I just love the inflamitory "snake oil" being thrown around? Just like the "snake oil" of plug you amp directly into the wall, on the same circuit (15 or 20 amp) as your PA and the guitarists amps and all the Bar's neon signs and plasma TVs and sat. recievers and video games.....god only know what else they hooked up to that circuit
This is real world not the lab?

But if a surge suppressor with your garden variety noise filtering can do what a so-called power conditioner can do, why is it so bad to point that out to people?

 

[bmc]

Not living in the USA perhaps? I've not come across people in the UK worrying about power unless they need more than is available from a standard wall socket (about 3 kW).

I've only been outside of Canada for 11 years, so most of that gigging time was over there. Throw in three years in the Persian Gulf after Canada.

 

[onlyclave]

ANY 2mSec "blip" delivered to the power supply of any power amp will be treated as NOISE, and the power transformer and DC rail caps, along with other filtering will essentially bypass this to ground and the resulting TINY bit of energy will be gone. Just like a 2mSec dropout of the AC line will not affect the amp's operation in the slightest as the power supply reserve (which is significant) will carry the amp through like nothing happened. It works both ways.

So to clarify the above statement, if your amp needs more instantaneous current that what the wall receptacle can supply and the Power Factor Correction (tm) which is essentially a stiffening capacitor is present to provide that instantaneous current, the amp's own power supply treat that as noise and filters it? So the amplifiers own power supply current limits itself?


"At the center of the Elite-15 PF i is our unique transient Power Factor Technology circuit. For the first time, low-level analog,
digital, and video components are not modulated or distorted via the power amplifier’s extreme AC current demands. Further,
the power amplifier sees a highly filtered, extremely low-impedance supply of AC power. The Elite-15 PF i, in fact, has in
excess of 3 Amps of continuous current reserve (over 45 amps peak charge) for the most extreme peak power demands. This
technology enables power amplifiers and powered subwoofers to operate at peak efficiency, reaching levels of performance
previously unattainable."

That statement is from the manual from the Furman Elite 15 PFi which is in their home theater series of conditioners. Garth Powell is the senior engineer at Furman who designed it and wrote the manual. Would the amplifier disagree with what is being sent to it from the conditioner to allow it to operate better because of noise?

In another post you told us what your engineering lab's power supply situation is and for you it's controlled and controllable so that you can develop new amplifiers and then publish the specs of them based on your controlled situation. As if the rest of us could be so lucky to have those kinds of controlled power in a house, garage, bar, or outdoor festival! Inconsistent power and conditions yield inconsistent results, so the specs on amplifiers are really only best case scenario under controlled conditions. Having your gear plugged into a good power conditioner or regulator gives you a chance to try to control the uncontrollable and unknown.

Certifications from UL, CE, etc. to my knowledge are to prove that the device won't kill someone or burst into flame when plugged into the wall, but how do those organizations measure and certify performance and sound quality?

Thanks for your response.

 

[B-string]

But if a surge suppressor with your garden variety noise filtering can do what a so-called power conditioner can do, why is it so bad to point that out to people?

Because JimmyM it's.......... SNAKE OIL!
Ask any engineer the power at the wall plug is ALWAYS clean, proper voltage, and more current than you will EVER need. Every place you play will have multiple 20 amp dedicated circuits so everyone won't have to share their "wall power". {Need a tongue in cheek smiley}

 

[aborgman]

Because JimmyM it's.......... SNAKE OIL!
Ask any engineer the power at the wall plug is ALWAYS clean, proper voltage, and more current than you will EVER need. Every place you play will have multiple 20 amp dedicated circuits so everyone won't have to share their "wall power". {Need a tongue in cheek smiley}

No - some times you'll have crappy horrible power.

...and a power conditioner won't fix that at all.

--
aborgman (Electrical Engineer)

 

[I play metal]

I'm lost.

But Im just gonna get a good,new,furman for the rack gear and plug the head into the wall.(hate to repaeat my self but wanna cover all angles here)

Mainly ,like I said,for cosmetic and cleanlieness.And,honestly,for the lights for the rack gear is a factor.

I checked the "heavy duty" furmans and looked good,but will stick to plugging my head into the wall probably.

Sound legit to you?

So to clarify the above statement, if your amp needs more instantaneous current that what the wall receptacle can supply and the Power Factor Correction (tm) which is essentially a stiffening capacitor is present to provide that instantaneous current, the amp's own power supply treat that as noise and filters it? So the amplifiers own power supply current limits itself?


"At the center of the Elite-15 PF i is our unique transient Power Factor Technology circuit. For the first time, low-level analog,
digital, and video components are not modulated or distorted via the power amplifier’s extreme AC current demands. Further,
the power amplifier sees a highly filtered, extremely low-impedance supply of AC power. The Elite-15 PF i, in fact, has in
excess of 3 Amps of continuous current reserve (over 45 amps peak charge) for the most extreme peak power demands. This
technology enables power amplifiers and powered subwoofers to operate at peak efficiency, reaching levels of performance
previously unattainable."

That statement is from the manual from the Furman Elite 15 PFi which is in their home theater series of conditioners. Garth Powell is the senior engineer at Furman who designed it and wrote the manual. Would the amplifier disagree with what is being sent to it from the conditioner to allow it to operate better because of noise?

In another post you told us what your engineering lab's power supply situation is and for you it's controlled and controllable so that you can develop new amplifiers and then publish the specs of them based on your controlled situation. As if the rest of us could be so lucky to have those kinds of controlled power in a house, garage, bar, or outdoor festival! Inconsistent power and conditions yield inconsistent results, so the specs on amplifiers are really only best case scenario under controlled conditions. Having your gear plugged into a good power conditioner or regulator gives you a chance to try to control the uncontrollable and unknown.

Certifications from UL, CE, etc. to my knowledge are to prove that the device won't kill someone or burst into flame when plugged into the wall, but how do those organizations measure and certify performance and sound quality?

Thanks for your response.

 

[JimmyM]

Because JimmyM it's.......... SNAKE OIL!
Ask any engineer the power at the wall plug is ALWAYS clean, proper voltage, and more current than you will EVER need. Every place you play will have multiple 20 amp dedicated circuits so everyone won't have to share their "wall power". {Need a tongue in cheek smiley}

A power conditioner will do nothing for any of that stuff.

 

[FunkMetalBass]

I bought a Monster power cond. a couple years back for about $75. It's extremely convenient. At our first gig with my new band, I accidentally wired my amp incorrectly in the dark. Instead of blowing the fuse in the amp, it popped the circuit in my power conditioner - saving my amp's fuse and allowing me to get through that gig once I reconnected everything.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I bought a Monster power cond. ...$75.

I carry a spare 50 cent fuse.

 

[OtisRocks]

A power conditioner will do nothing for any of that stuff.

One of these might help

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Just be sure to put it out in the smoking section

 

[B-string]

No - some times you'll have crappy horrible power.

...and a power conditioner won't fix that at all.

--
aborgman (Electrical Engineer)

I agree it won't fix it all! Also agree it won't totally "clean up" line noise. I have found in 40 years of playing it can reduce some of the noise that the equipment fails to reject on it's own. While a spike rejection of 2.5KV is wonderful, it can't help with a 15KV to 40KV spike from an electrical storm. I suppose we could ignore all those warnings to unplug everything from the wall during those storms?
I have degrees also, I also am wise enough to live in the real world. Don't worry about spike protection, I could use the repair work.

 

[johnk_10]

Most studios use a transformer balanced AC line that connects to the balanced 110v-0-110v street source and gives a 55v-0-55v output. This eliminates common mode noise, which accounts for the bulk of whatever noise there is present on AC lines.
No snake oil here, it works. But it's way beyond what anyone needs for live sound applications.

yeah. that's what we have in our 24 track analog studio, only our's is about the size of a small V8 engine block and weighs even more (all that iron)! it does clean up the power nicely though.