To sub or not to sub

[Wasnex]

@Baz in Kent

Here are my thoughts:

I would consider adding a sub if I were in your situation and I was running sound. For best results you need to know how to configure, hook up, and adjust everything. If you don't know what you are doing, the sound suffers and you may blow the sub.

The specs suggest the B1200D is probably a waste of money. IMHO, the ZXA1 Sub is significantly better, but it's still going to be fairly limited in regards to how loud it can play. The weaker the sub, the more tempting it will be to push it beyond it's limits...meaning it's more likely to incur damage.

Something else to consider: What happens if you leave this band? Will a sub be something you will use somewhere else? I think an amp would probably be a better choice for most people.

With such a modest PA, the bass amp usually carries the house and the bass is typically not run through the PA.

 

[Baz in Kent]

@Baz in Kent

Here are my thoughts:

I would consider adding a sub if I were in your situation and I was running sound. For best results you need to know how to configure, hook up, and adjust everything. If you don't know what you are doing, the sound suffers and you may blow the sub.

The specs suggest the B1200D is probably a waste of money. IMHO, the ZXA1 Sub is significantly better, but it's still going to be fairly limited in regards to how loud it can play. The weaker the sub, the more tempting it will be to push it beyond it's limits...meaning it's more likely to incur damage.

Something else to consider: What happens if you leave this band? Will a sub be something you will use somewhere else? I think an amp would probably be a better choice for most people.

With such a modest PA, the bass amp usually carries the house and the bass is typically not run through the PA.

Thanks, fair points but I’ve been in this band 30 years (playing guitar) so if I do leave I’ll probably just gift them all my gear…
Between the guys in the band we have plenty of experience turning the knobs.
The price/weight/reviews of the 1200D have led me to this point but I’m quite prepared to return it.
As for the ZXA1 it’s just too damn heavy.
I’m looking at a barefaced bass cab with a head if the sub doesn’t work out, forget the Helix.

 

[Wasnex]

As for the ZXA1 it’s just too damn heavy.

??? That's a pretty strong statement considering the difference is only about 3lbs.

B1200D = 43lbs
ZXA1 Sub = 46lbs

Good luck!

UNSUB

 

[Mike Caldwell]

??? That's a pretty strong statement considering the difference is only about 3lbs.

B1200D = 43lbs
ZXA1 Sub = 46lbs

Good luck!

UNSUB

That's about weight of my tool box I take with me to shows and service calls!

 

[Baz in Kent]

??? That's a pretty strong statement considering the difference is only about 3lbs.

B1200D = 43lbs
ZXA1 Sub = 46lbs

Good luck!

UNSUB

Sorry, I misremembered the earlier discussion… it costs twice as much, the weight issue was with a 15” sub.

This thread’s got much longer than I ever expected - thanks to you guys for all the input.

 

[Scotty4string]

A sub is going to benefit the kick drum way more than the bass guitar unless you are playing a 5 string or drop tuning. If you really feel like the bottom end of your bass sound is lacking, upgrade your rig. I wouldn't spend time and money on a sub for the band's PA, YOU will get more bang for your buck upgrading your bass cabs. Plus some of the newer bass cabs are lighter than even 12" subs now a days anyway.

Sorry, I disagree. A sub will improve every instruments sound. Drums, sure. A properly tuned pa with a sub has a very noticeable effect on bass and every other instrument. The main reason is that the tops don’t have to try and reproduce low frequencies that maybe close to the limit for them. Getting those low frequencies out of the tops lets them reproduce mids and highs with better clarity. I always use a sub even in places that are small enough that stage amps can cover the room. Having that extra frequency response makes the entire band sound better. Also I always run at least a kick mic mic on the drums and a bass di or mic. I also throw a mic on the guitar and di the keys in every venue. Not to add volume, but to even out the sound in the room.

At least that’s been my experience.

 

[TommyGunz]

Sorry, I disagree. A sub will improve every instruments sound. Drums, sure. A properly tuned pa with a sub has a very noticeable effect on bass and every other instrument. The main reason is that the tops don’t have to try and reproduce low frequencies that maybe close to the limit for them. Getting those low frequencies out of the tops lets them reproduce mids and highs with better clarity. I always use a sub even in places that are small enough that stage amps can cover the room. Having that extra frequency response makes the entire band sound better. Also I always run at least a kick mic mic on the drums and a bass di or mic. I also throw a mic on the guitar and di the keys in every venue. Not to add volume, but to even out the sound in the room.

At least that’s been my experience.

Unfortunately you've fallen into the strawman fallacy. I was talking about this specific instance where the bass player was being asked to provide the missing subs for the band's PA. Presumably all the other instruments are already amplified, and so would his bass if he went the bass amp route. So the kick drum would benefit most from adding subs since it is not already amplified. I was not commenting on what would be best for the band, which is obviously to get some nice subs, but given that the bass player was considering buying some dinky 12" subs, I was opining that the bass player should just get a bass rig of his own. Since that would maximize the bang for the buck of the bass player, and probably be even easier to transport. As you said, the subs benefit the entire band. So in my opinion it shouldn't fall solely on the bass player to purchase, transport, and load the subs. But I believe OP has already stated that he is ok with purchasing the subs, he's just not thrilled about having to move them.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Unfortunately you've fallen into the strawman fallacy. I was talking about this specific instance where the bass player was being asked to provide the missing subs for the band's PA. Presumably all the other instruments are already amplified, and so would his bass if he went the bass amp route. So the kick drum would benefit most from adding subs since it is not already amplified. I was not commenting on what would be best for the band, which is obviously to get some nice subs, but given that the bass player was considering buying some dinky 12" subs, I was opining that the bass player should just get a bass rig of his own. Since that would maximize the bang for the buck of the bass player, and probably be even easier to transport. As you said, the subs benefit the entire band. So in my opinion it shouldn't fall solely on the bass player to purchase, transport, and load the subs. But I believe OP has already stated that he is ok with purchasing the subs, he's just not thrilled about having to move them.

I realise this is a long thread so understand why my (the OP’s) question isn’t always specifically answered but appreciate the replies nonetheless, all adding to my knowledge.

Bearing in mind criteria of weight, cost and sound quality I want to know whether a low cost, light sub (Eurolive 1200D) with IEMs would be a viable alternative to a bass rig. From the discussion I suspect not but I’ve got one on the way which I can return, too late for this weekend but good for next weekend’s gig.

I’ll report back.

Cheers, B

 

[TommyGunz]

max SPL 122 dB, and a +/-3dB frequency response going down to only 60Hz... Unfortunately i suspect you will be quite underwhelmed. I wouldn't even call that a subwoofer. Please don't think I am trying to discourage you at all, but its impossible for me to hide my disdain for such a product. I wish you the best of luck on your upcoming gigs!

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I realise this is a long thread so understand why my (the OP’s) question isn’t always specifically answered but appreciate the replies nonetheless, all adding to my knowledge.

Bearing in mind criteria of weight, cost and sound quality I want to know whether a low cost, light sub (Eurolive 1200D) with IEMs would be a viable alternative to a bass rig. From the discussion I suspect not but I’ve got one on the way which I can return, too late for this weekend but good for next weekend’s gig.

I’ll report back.

Cheers, B

Using it as a bass rig by itself is not going to work very well. That sub as most powered subs have a built in crossover for both high pass and low pass, I'm guessing the high pass is likely going to be about 55hz and the low pass around 80 to 100hz, you will get no mids from just using that sub as a bass guitar cabinet.
With using IEM's it would give some rumble to maybe feel but at the same time adding more mud to the overall sound off the stage.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Using it as a bass rig by itself is not going to work very well. That sub as most powered subs have a built in crossover for both high pass and low pass, I'm guessing the high pass is likely going to be about 55hz and the low pass around 80 to 100hz, you will get no mids from just using that sub as a bass guitar cabinet.
With using IEM's it would give some rumble to maybe feel but at the same time adding more mud to the overall sound off the stage.

I won’t be using it as a bass cab, I DI my Helix using a variety of bass presets so the sub will hopefully improve the FoH bass and overall sound, while I monitor with my IEMs.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I won’t be using it as a bass cab, I DI my Helix using a variety of bass presets so the sub will hopefully improve the FoH bass and overall sound, while I monitor with my IEMs.

Are you planning to add the sub to the main PA system so it will be receiving the full mix going to the PA.
You previous post made it sound like the sub was going to be used just as bass rig.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Are you planning to add the sub to the main PA system so it will be receiving the full mix going to the PA.
You previous post made it sound like the sub was going to be used just as bass rig.

Yes, add to the PA. It’s a long thread but it’s in the first post.

 

[Baz in Kent]

max SPL 122 dB, and a +/-3dB frequency response going down to only 60Hz... Unfortunately i suspect you will be quite underwhelmed. I wouldn't even call that a subwoofer. Please don't think I am trying to discourage you at all, but its impossible for me to hide my disdain for such a product. I wish you the best of luck on your upcoming gigs!

Just to pick up on this, the specs I’m looking at say 45hz bottom end plus a boost that can be directed at 40hz, I thought this would be supporting my 4-string (e = 41hz)? Also that 122db SPL is higher than the PA cabs.
Cheers.

 

[TommyGunz]

the 45Hz number is from the 10dB frequency range. Meaning -10dB down from the max spl, this is alot. They like to advertise this number but the +/-3dB range is more useful.

 

[Baz in Kent]

the 45Hz number is from the 10dB frequency range. Meaning -10dB down from the max spl, this is alot. They like to advertise this number but the +/-3dB range is more useful.

Ah ok, thanks. Never too old to learn!

 

[Zooberwerx]

Just to pick up on this, the specs I’m looking at say 45hz bottom end plus a boost that can be directed at 40hz, I thought this would be supporting my 4-string (e = 41hz)? Also that 122db SPL is higher than the PA cabs.
Cheers.

I'd abandon your stated criteria & specs. Trying to reproduce a fundamental is a lost cause plus the stated specs are largely over-ambitious and meant to "wow" the consumer. I use the cheapest subs known-to-man (Invalid Link Removed) but they sound great given the context / applications. The real trick resides with configuring filters & crossovers but that's another thread.

Riis

 

[Baz in Kent]

I'd abandon your stated criteria & specs. Trying to reproduce a fundamental is a lost cause plus the stated specs are largely over-ambitious and meant to "wow" the consumer. I use the cheapest subs known-to-man (Invalid Link Removed) but they sound great given the context / applications. The real trick resides with configuring filters & crossovers but that's another thread.

Riis

Thanks. I’ll find out soon enough if the sub’s viable, seems the crossover’s fixed at 100hz but there’s 10db boost between 45 - 90hz (switchable) and high cut 70 - 150hz. I can’t imagine it’ll make our PA sound worse!

 

[Zooberwerx]

Thanks. I’ll find out soon enough if the sub’s viable, seems the crossover’s fixed at 100hz but there’s 10db boost between 45 - 90hz (switchable) and high cut 70 - 150hz. I can’t imagine it’ll make our PA sound worse!

Which sub is that and can you link the specs / manual?

Edit and never mind...I found the Behringer manual Link Removed. A few thoughts:

*You can send either a full-range pass-thru or filtered signal to the mains. The manual shows the filtered XLR's in play.

*10 dB of boost / user selectable freq? I see a potential for sonic disaster.

*The hi-cut will come in handy as you may need to underlap (~80 hz, maybe?) depending on the interplay with the mains.

Riis

 

[Baz in Kent]

Which sub is that and can you link the specs / manual?

Edit and never mind...I found the Behringer manual Link Removed. A few thoughts:

*You can send either a full-range pass-thru or filtered signal to the mains. The manual shows the filtered XLR's in play.

*10 dB of boost / user selectable freq? I see a potential for sonic disaster.

*The hi-cut will come in handy as you may need to underlap (~80 hz, maybe?) depending on the interplay with the mains.

Riis

Thanks - that’s it. I imagine I’ll use the crossover and hi-cut - as you say, maybe 80hz - and have a play with the low boost to see if it helps.