To sub or not to sub

[s0c9]

I’ve been amp-free and using IEMs for years (as a guitarist) hence now using my Helix for bass; previously the bass players have always used amps - hence the guys in the band (and me) not being sure about our sound being good enough without one.
We don’t play festival gigs, the biggest are weddings/parties with a few hundred guests, we’ll occasionally hire PA if we think we need it but the Peavey 680 almost always does the job and we’ve only ever used subs if hiring gear.
I’m inclined to give the Eurolive 1200 a go, seems it’ll be fine for most of our gigs which are quite small venues. If it turns out I need something more the sub will still be a bonus for our PA and two of them cost less than a Rumble 800.

I played a gig about 4 hrs from home (on Texas/Arkansas border) 2 weekends ago. House PA. Small place.
Dual 15" subs each side and 2x12" tops on each side.
Point being many venues here - even local bars - have PLENTY PA for you to plug in.. can't speak for your side of the pond tho'.

 

[Baz in Kent]

I played a gig about 4 hrs from home (on Texas/Arkansas border) 2 weekends ago. House PA. Small place.
Dual 15" subs each side and 2x12" tops on each side.
Point being many venues here - even local bars - have PLENTY PA for you to plug in.. can't speak for your side of the pond tho'.
View attachment 5396905

It’s rare here for venues to supply PA and usually we use our own even when they do.
In fact, thinking about some of the social clubs who do have PA, they use it for bingo calling so it’s no use for a band!

 

[Baz in Kent]

I'd go for an active sub. Your audiences will appreciate it.

 

[s0c9]

It’s rare here for venues to supply PA and usually we use our own even when they do.
In fact, thinking about some of the social clubs who do have PA, they use it for bingo calling so it’s no use for a band!

Used to be that way here too, but over time, it appears that most venues (at least the ones I play) have realized that the expense of an in-house PA is better than bands showing up with not enough rig for the gig and driving punters away, so fewer drinking/eating customers.

that place in my pic above was jam-packed solid until around midnight, when they slowly emptied out to go to another venue down the street that was open until 4am. Normal behavior for that venue..I found out afterwards. It was my first time there.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Used to be that way here too, but over time, it appears that most venues (at least the ones I play) have realized that the expense of an in-house PA is better than bands showing up with not enough rig for the gig and driving punters away, so fewer drinking/eating customers.

The problem we have here is punters not drinking/eating enough so many venues are closing or stopping live music. One even told me they get punters who spend the evening drinking (free) tap water! It wasn’t helped by Covid of course but the live music scene’s on its knees and the future looks bleak.

 

[trevcda]

The sound guy in me will always prefer a sub. Let the PA do the work and use the bass amp as a monitor.

I totally agree with the first sentence, as I own and operate the system. And while I agree with the second sentence, I understand the it negates what you are trying to do. What I haven't seen taken into consideration, is how your band mates are going to hear you if you are using IEMs. Especially the drummer, as the others may not even give a rip. It's tough to lock into something you cannot hear or is nothing but a delayed muddy mess coming of the back of FOH.

 

[Bag of Lazers]

The problem we have here is punters not drinking/eating enough so many venues are closing or stopping live music. One even told me they get punters who spend the evening drinking (free) tap water! It wasn’t helped by Covid of course but the live music scene’s on its knees and the future looks bleak.

Has the price of a pint and/or general cost of living gone up so much that the English aren't drinking enough? That's genuinely disturbing.

 

[Baz in Kent]

Has the price of a pint and/or general cost of living gone up so much that the English aren't drinking enough? That's genuinely disturbing.

The price of everything but a pint’s £5/6 ($7.60).
It’s tough on venues, we’re charging less now for gigs than we did 10 years ago and many pubs have just turned into restaurants.

 

[s0c9]

I totally agree with the first sentence, as I own and operate the system. And while I agree with the second sentence, I understand the it negates what you are trying to do. What I haven't seen taken into consideration, is how your band mates are going to hear you if you are using IEMs. Especially the drummer, as the others may not even give a rip. It's tough to lock into something you cannot hear or is nothing but a delayed muddy mess coming of the back of FOH.

True. Every one of the 4 bands I'm working w/ right now are 100% IEM, including the drummer. In each, the only guy w/ an amp onstage is the guitar.
Keys, acoustic, fiddle.. all DI to PA. All IEM.

 

[Baz in Kent]

I totally agree with the first sentence, as I own and operate the system. And while I agree with the second sentence, I understand the it negates what you are trying to do. What I haven't seen taken into consideration, is how your band mates are going to hear you if you are using IEMs. Especially the drummer, as the others may not even give a rip. It's tough to lock into something you cannot hear or is nothing but a delayed muddy mess coming of the back of FOH.

The drummer uses IEMs, the singer and guitarist have wedges (but we’re encouraging them to go IEM). We’ve played a couple of gigs without a bass amp and we’re all happy with the onstage sound, it’s more a question of losing the bass for the audience.

 

[Snarf]

You NEED subs. It's no longer acceptable to be without them, no matter how much the previous generation screeches about "15 tops were always enough!!" They're not. You're competing against DJs, and they all have subs.

 

[Baz in Kent]

You NEED subs. It's no longer acceptable to be without them, no matter how much the previous generation screeches about "15 tops were always enough!!" They're not. You're competing against DJs, and they all have subs.

Roger that
I’m going with one 12” sub and we’ll see if that does it.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Roger that
I’m going with one 12” sub and we’ll see if that does it.

I would seriously look at a 15 inch sub and not Behringer. Some equipment has to have some weight and size to get the job done.
Even your old Peavey top speakers would could way out run that 12 inch sub.

 

[Baz in Kent]

I would seriously look at a 15 inch sub and not Behringer. Some equipment has to have some weight and size to get the job done.
Even your old Peavey top speakers would could way out run that 12 inch sub.

Unfortunately that wouldn’t meet my weight criterion.

 

[Bag of Lazers]

Unfortunately that wouldn’t meet my weight criterion.

A sub should be minimum 15 inches. The newer neodymium speakers are lighter than old school subs. I recommend seeing if you can find those to meet the weight requirement.

 

[2thAche]

We ended up subs to go with our mains . The mains couldn't handle adding the bass on top of guitar, vocals and drums (Yamaha 15", 750W each). The subs make a big difference (800W Yamaha), but trickier to EQ bass if you care about your tone. The guitar/kick/bass together need to be balanced out so all the bass from each doesn't compound and get muddy.

Most cover bands I see now who are small enough to have their own PA (not using big house systems) are using subs, but the bass tends to be kind of tone-less, and that's the tricky part of subs IMO.

Currently I still use my back line because we just haven't taken the time to dial the bass in with the PA. It's there, but more supplemental. When we can spend time doing EQ at full volume on the PAs, I think they'll be acceptable to just go direct.

 

[Baz in Kent]

A sub should be minimum 15 inches. The newer neodymium speakers are lighter than old school subs. I recommend seeing if you can find those to meet the weight requirement.

The Barefaced sub does that but doesn’t meet my cost criterion. I’m probably going to regret that.

 

[Baz in Kent]

We ended up subs to go with our mains . They couldn't handle adding the bass on top of guitar, vocals and drums (Yamaha 15", 750W each). The subs make a big difference (800W Yamaha), but trickier to EQ bass if you care about your tone. The guitar/kick/bass together need to be balanced out so all the bass from each doesn't compound and get muddy.

Most cover bands I see now who are small enough to have their own PA (not using big house systems) are using subs, but the bass tends to be kind of tone-less, and that's the tricky part of subs IMO.

Currently I still use my back line because we just haven't taken the time to dial the bass in with the PA. It's there, but more supplemental. When we can spend time doing EQ at full volume on the PAs, I think they'll be acceptable to just go direct.

I’m using the Helix for tone so expecting the sub to give a better outcome than just going through the PA speakers.

 

[drpepper]

This is where I’m coming from, but using IEMs instead of a bass amp for monitoring. The only question then is - will the Eurolive 1200 do the job? If so it answers your last paragraph.

I have two of the B1200Ds and when I use them, I couple them in the center or on one side.

From my experience, I'd imagine that for a full band situation with acoustic drums and already using 15" mains, one B1200D would do next to nothing for you. Depending on how loud you're playing and what your expectations and wants are, even two coupled may or may not meet them.

I ended up with a heavy 15" sub that had been my contribution to a previous band PA. I have a time-to-time want to have some PA gear and got the Behringers as a replacement for the general PITA of dealing with the previous one. My hope and belief after trying them was that they'd be in the same ballpark performance-wise.

I think the nutshell on the B1200D is that for relatively low volume situations, two can enhance and thicken the bottom end of the image out front for a small PA using 10", 12" or even 15" mains. But that's never going to be a smaller scale version of chest thumping nightclub or concert venue bass and sub bass. If that's the expectation, I think disappointment will be likely.

My impression would be that for one B1200D to even do that thickening, your volume would have to be below any reasonable full band situation.

I started this thread when I was deciding what to do.

While you obviously can't hear a picture, this was a room that was generally full with a listed capacity of 140 where the pair of B1200Ds did a nice job.

 

[2thAche]

I’m using the Helix for tone so expecting the sub to give a better outcome than just going through the PA speakers.

It doesn't matter what you're using, it's reproduction through the main/sub as two units with a crossover, and mingling with the lower frequencies of the guitar and the kick drum. It's not going to be like the tone you get from your bass rig without attention to EQ.