Tonight I'm gojng to play minor pentatonic for an hour straight just to piss off your guitarist
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Told I play too much in Minor Pentatonic
- Thread starter iriegnome
- Start date
I have a similar problem and would like to hear more constructive advice and less posts assuring the OP that playing is sufficient or that his guitarist is out of touch.
This is the technique forum, not band management. Regardless of motivation, OP wants to grow as a musician - help him do it, or don't post.
FWIW, I've been trying to emphasize different chord tones in my lines, namely the Maj6th and Maj7th.
I love getting weird and proggy so probably use the b5 more than I should.
Still, I can't help feel like I'm mentally locked into the 4-5-b7 "box" when it comes to composing and improvising.
This is the technique forum, not band management. Regardless of motivation, OP wants to grow as a musician - help him do it, or don't post.
FWIW, I've been trying to emphasize different chord tones in my lines, namely the Maj6th and Maj7th.
I love getting weird and proggy so probably use the b5 more than I should.
Still, I can't help feel like I'm mentally locked into the 4-5-b7 "box" when it comes to composing and improvising.
learn the typical 5 positions for your minor and major pentatonics ...
just play the proper 'third' that goes with a major or minor chord ... like using the proper 7th note over a Major , Minor or Dominant 7th chord ... either you need to know the full chord name , ... or listen carefully !
when I played lots of 50's music I got a good finger stretching ... most bass parts work around the root , major third , fifth , and sixth or flat 7 ... lots of first finger and little finger stuff
just play the proper 'third' that goes with a major or minor chord ... like using the proper 7th note over a Major , Minor or Dominant 7th chord ... either you need to know the full chord name , ... or listen carefully !
when I played lots of 50's music I got a good finger stretching ... most bass parts work around the root , major third , fifth , and sixth or flat 7 ... lots of first finger and little finger stuff
I generally have the same problem for the same reason, but from listening to a lot of jazz I became aware of how restricted I was in my note selection, and worked on ways to open up my playing.
There are a lot of very good suggestions here - I'd just add that you shouldn't be afraid to experiment - at first not at gigs, so you don't mess up, but on your own.
Without getting deeply into theory and learning about modes, substitutions, how various harmonies work etc (if you're serious, I think you do need to do that) one thing that helped me was to just get comfortable with the entire chromatic scale for the root of any chord you're playing. Just go through the fretboard and learn the full chromatic scale for each note and get a feel for what the different intervals sound like.
Then keep in mind that whenever you play through any chord, without getting into anything very advanced, you have the 12 notes of the chromatic scale available to mess with - make yourself aware of all the notes that are out there for you to use and just experiment to find new things that work. You'll discover notes you probably haven't thought about that you can use to add color and variety - like the minor 2nd mentioned by @Bass Master General and the sharped 4th.
Another easy thing to explore if you haven't already is the melodic minor scale - M6 and M7 going up the scale, m7 and m6 going down. It's actually used in a lot of the old RnB and blues, and you can exploit it if you use your ears.
There are a lot of very good suggestions here - I'd just add that you shouldn't be afraid to experiment - at first not at gigs, so you don't mess up, but on your own.
Without getting deeply into theory and learning about modes, substitutions, how various harmonies work etc (if you're serious, I think you do need to do that) one thing that helped me was to just get comfortable with the entire chromatic scale for the root of any chord you're playing. Just go through the fretboard and learn the full chromatic scale for each note and get a feel for what the different intervals sound like.
Then keep in mind that whenever you play through any chord, without getting into anything very advanced, you have the 12 notes of the chromatic scale available to mess with - make yourself aware of all the notes that are out there for you to use and just experiment to find new things that work. You'll discover notes you probably haven't thought about that you can use to add color and variety - like the minor 2nd mentioned by @Bass Master General and the sharped 4th.
Another easy thing to explore if you haven't already is the melodic minor scale - M6 and M7 going up the scale, m7 and m6 going down. It's actually used in a lot of the old RnB and blues, and you can exploit it if you use your ears.
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Just had a chance to listen to this:
I would say it does seem like you have some go-to feels, lots of flowing/walking scale based playing. I'm not in the guitarist heads, but maybe what they are asking for is getting more diversity in feel by being more intentional about note choice and timing. Instead of running up and down a scale, pick 3 or 4 notes, vary the timing and create a more distinct counterpoint. More jumps and space, and more profound range/octave shifts. A lot of the time in these situations they feel something is missing in the overall music and they point to you and say hey if you changed things up we'd sound better, but you're working with the song structures and other parts ... it can be tough. I'd just set aside some time to try new things and talk about it as a group. I don't think choosing a new scale to play using the same overall approach is going to make a big difference.
I would say it does seem like you have some go-to feels, lots of flowing/walking scale based playing. I'm not in the guitarist heads, but maybe what they are asking for is getting more diversity in feel by being more intentional about note choice and timing. Instead of running up and down a scale, pick 3 or 4 notes, vary the timing and create a more distinct counterpoint. More jumps and space, and more profound range/octave shifts. A lot of the time in these situations they feel something is missing in the overall music and they point to you and say hey if you changed things up we'd sound better, but you're working with the song structures and other parts ... it can be tough. I'd just set aside some time to try new things and talk about it as a group. I don't think choosing a new scale to play using the same overall approach is going to make a big difference.
What are the chords? What is the melody? OP won't much direction without more details.
What is appropriate to play depends entirely on context.
The sweet thing about pentatonic scales
is that they contain only notes that sound good in many many contexts.
You won't find more dense 7 note scale that applies as easily in such broad situations
the bitter thing about pentatonic scales
is that they can encourage ignorance of the specific contexts you play in
You really don't need to know the harmony or the melody
when you can just wank away in a minor pentatonic all night long.
To develop more sophisticated bass line you must know the chords / chord tones and the melody and allow them to guide your choices.
Mark J Smith has a nice summary of playing to the chord tones
What is appropriate to play depends entirely on context.
The sweet thing about pentatonic scales
is that they contain only notes that sound good in many many contexts.
You won't find more dense 7 note scale that applies as easily in such broad situations
the bitter thing about pentatonic scales
is that they can encourage ignorance of the specific contexts you play in
You really don't need to know the harmony or the melody
when you can just wank away in a minor pentatonic all night long.
To develop more sophisticated bass line you must know the chords / chord tones and the melody and allow them to guide your choices.
Mark J Smith has a nice summary of playing to the chord tones
Ric5
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A lot of rock music uses the "pop scale" which is ... root, minor 3rd, 4th, #4th, 5th, flat 7th, and octave. Entwistle played this a lot with the Who. A lot of Rock music uses the minor 3rd and Dominant 7th bass lines over major chords.
As an aside - hearing about a guitarist complaining about someone using too much minor pentatonic, is kinda rich...
just an FYI - pickles, this song was when we called all of our kids onto stage. My newly adopted daughter doesn't feel well and my other daughters are trying to get her to dance. It is from one of our festivals that we put on. Listening and hearing are always a funny thing. Especially with 6 musicians on stage. It is hard to all be in the same place with open playing like we do.
Love the unresolve and emotion in minors...but expanding upon the 5 notes of pentatonic will open the door to tons of new stuff..at first it seems strange but once you venture out more it really leads the way more sonic options..i used to live in e & a minor but as i learned more..i love any key any scale and having more options just opens the door
yes we have 3 guitarists and 2 drummers. We were down a guitarist for a while and added a keyboard player, but fired the keys guy and brought back the original guitarist
Well, I'm familiar with you guys, and compared to you I'm a wannabe, so I'm a little gun-shy about responding... but I have a similar struggle sometimes in our little amateur jamband, and appreciate the chance to hear what others think about the unique role of the bass in this genre of music.
Sometimes, I think I feel sucked into the same 'ol minor pentatonic (because we're all deeply programmed to follow it, and) because of where my guitarist (often unknowingly) places his emphasis. Even though he is consciously playing past or beyond the blues scale, throwing in lots of other notes that "don't belong"... the reality is that he is phrasing it such that the most 'important' notes often land right smack dab in that scale. Or at least that's my perception. So, I feel like if I stray too far, or resist too hard, I run the risk of not being there for him when he needs me, to keep it all a little linear and melodic.
One strategy I use is to carefully build a little tension by using some of his passing tones to paint a little weirdness underneath. Tim's are often 1/2 step up or down from the notes that are in the scale. I'll take little non-conforming phrases I hear, and repeat them, try, to turn them inside out, etc, sandwich them between more conventional stuff, and then ease back into the more predictable stuff through a back door before I've stretched it too far. Its risky because it can just plain sound wrong. But when it works, it sounds intentional and kind of esoteric, especially when the ouch is healed with a smooth resolve to the root.
But we're just a 3-piece... I would imagine this would be much harder to pull off with other guitars, because the tension can't really 'breathe' and hang there the same way.
Sometimes, I think I feel sucked into the same 'ol minor pentatonic (because we're all deeply programmed to follow it, and) because of where my guitarist (often unknowingly) places his emphasis. Even though he is consciously playing past or beyond the blues scale, throwing in lots of other notes that "don't belong"... the reality is that he is phrasing it such that the most 'important' notes often land right smack dab in that scale. Or at least that's my perception. So, I feel like if I stray too far, or resist too hard, I run the risk of not being there for him when he needs me, to keep it all a little linear and melodic.
One strategy I use is to carefully build a little tension by using some of his passing tones to paint a little weirdness underneath. Tim's are often 1/2 step up or down from the notes that are in the scale. I'll take little non-conforming phrases I hear, and repeat them, try, to turn them inside out, etc, sandwich them between more conventional stuff, and then ease back into the more predictable stuff through a back door before I've stretched it too far. Its risky because it can just plain sound wrong. But when it works, it sounds intentional and kind of esoteric, especially when the ouch is healed with a smooth resolve to the root.
But we're just a 3-piece... I would imagine this would be much harder to pull off with other guitars, because the tension can't really 'breathe' and hang there the same way.
BTW - I want to note (not really a pun) that there has been a lot of great info in here.
PS - TwentyHz - thanks
PS - TwentyHz - thanks
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Here's just a few ideas you could try out to spice things up a little...
Try approching the next chord from a half step above or below the root (or any chord tone of the next chord). Just one way to add a little chromaticism into your playing.
Anytime the rest of the band is playing a dominant 7th chord, you can freely choose to use the minor or major 3rd of that chord in your bass line... and you can also freely use the minor OR major pentatonic scale based around that chord. So in other words, if they are playing a G7 you can use either the G min pentatonic or G maj pentatonic, and they both sound good against a G7 in most contexts.
If they aren't playing a 7th chord, but just a regular minor or major chord, then you usually want to stick with minor scales over minor chords and major scales over major chords. If you play a minor 3rd over a major chord or a major 3rd over a minor chord, it's usually going to sound "wrong" in most contexts.
Try playing more of the blues scale over both minor and dominant chords. And just like how you can add the #4 (aka flat 5) between the 4 and 5 of the scale and it sounds "bluesy", you can also add the #7 between the b7 and octave of the scale to add a little chromaticism to the minor pentatonic scale.
Try approching the next chord from a half step above or below the root (or any chord tone of the next chord). Just one way to add a little chromaticism into your playing.
Anytime the rest of the band is playing a dominant 7th chord, you can freely choose to use the minor or major 3rd of that chord in your bass line... and you can also freely use the minor OR major pentatonic scale based around that chord. So in other words, if they are playing a G7 you can use either the G min pentatonic or G maj pentatonic, and they both sound good against a G7 in most contexts.
If they aren't playing a 7th chord, but just a regular minor or major chord, then you usually want to stick with minor scales over minor chords and major scales over major chords. If you play a minor 3rd over a major chord or a major 3rd over a minor chord, it's usually going to sound "wrong" in most contexts.
Try playing more of the blues scale over both minor and dominant chords. And just like how you can add the #4 (aka flat 5) between the 4 and 5 of the scale and it sounds "bluesy", you can also add the #7 between the b7 and octave of the scale to add a little chromaticism to the minor pentatonic scale.
