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Told I play too much in Minor Pentatonic
- Thread starter iriegnome
- Start date
I love that your never a half step away from a right note. There was another video where he explains it more and plays it. He confirmed my long standing thought that if you play a wrong note, play it a second or third time to make everyone think you meant to do it.
When you play the minor pentatonic, are you always playing the "blues" note? That special little chromatic note between the 4th and 5th? I noticed when I play on keys... If I am playing something outside of blues... I sometimes just hit this note out of habit. It makes a more classical piece have a blues sound and it does not fit at all within the scheme of things. Pentatonic scale is great but it is also limiting, for the mere sake of eliminating some notes from the scale. Perhaps just play around on a minor scale and see what happens when you add those other notes. Once you add those extra notes. play a G minor scale, for example. Now instead of starting at G, start on the A and play the same notes of the G minor. You now have a different sound and focal point but using the same notes.
Another idea is ask what they would like to see you do. You mentioned they are well informed players and if they can pick apart something that is not working, maybe they can offer an idea of what they would like to hear as well.
Another idea is ask what they would like to see you do. You mentioned they are well informed players and if they can pick apart something that is not working, maybe they can offer an idea of what they would like to hear as well.
Just from listening to a few clips, to me, it just sounds like you need some new influences. Learn some other songs in a different genre like funk or R&B. Learn some songs with a similar style as your band and just do what those bassists do. Be aware of the use of space. Know when to play a short note or long one. Or no note at all. Try not to get stuck. I personally can't take playing with people who are "stuck" and had to quit one band for only that reason. They just had no imagination.
One song I heard, Morning Dew, sounded a lot like Skynard's "Simple Man". I'd try to play in the style of Ed King for that song...
The notes are the least important aspect, really. There is no bassist that is so awesome that they give him extra notes, and there is no bassist that is so bad that they take notes away. It's all about what you do with them.
One song I heard, Morning Dew, sounded a lot like Skynard's "Simple Man". I'd try to play in the style of Ed King for that song...
The notes are the least important aspect, really. There is no bassist that is so awesome that they give him extra notes, and there is no bassist that is so bad that they take notes away. It's all about what you do with them.
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I haven't read every reply...
Sounds like with two drummers and three guitars, if things aren't already too busy, with all of them locking in the rhythm you can diverge to throw in melodic phrases, either synced with the melody (for even just one or two notes, or several more) or foreshadow the melody or do a response. I'm assuming this for fills.
If you're talking routine noodling of pentatonics for basslines like classic jam bands then, indeed, a little less could be more. Play more root's and fifths or straight up arpeggiate some chords (which is kinda like the pentatonics but not quite). Also, don't play the notes linearly (sp?). You can play the pentatonics but play the notes out of order as fitting. This is big.
Finally, you can really spice up the same minor pentatonic by going to the scales notes by way of quick steps or slides from the off notes. In the A minor pentatonic, slide the C# (the major 3rd) into the D or go C then C# back to C or A or E.
Add the blue note (D#).
Add the G# in there quickly (the maj 7 (it's the same fret, one string higher pitch than the blue note)) and back to the min 7, root, octave or 5 or other.... Slide from the minor 7 down a fret (I love this one) and then to 5th or root or other. You don't really want to sit on these "off" notes necessarily.
Just experiment, take your minor pentatonic with typical fingering of 1-4, 1-3, 1-3 and you can easily add the in between notes and often the half step outside notes (which is basically what i was describing above when i named notes, but try the other "off" notes as well. Its hard to explain without showing a FB or notation so just try em out and and then use them, and pentatonic noodling, judiciously!
Rest assured, i have it on good guitarist authority that Chuck Berry (since you mentioned him) played (still playing? i forget) the same stuff and didnt grow a bit in his entire career. Of course, he's Chuck Berry and we're not. But, the point is, i guess, is that you dont have to totally reinvent your playing to make your playing considerably fresh enough to make your guitarist and others go "cool!" Good luck.
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IMO it just sounds like you need to follow the vocal melody more and would instantly make you sound more tight with the band. Playing more scales is going to make you sound more distant from the band, lock in and play with the melody. The bassline should be one of the most memorable lines of the song that keeps you humming it days from now.
I went through the thread and didn't notice this but the op said 50's and 60's Johnny b good...almost every bass note from that era is diatonic major, including Johnny b good. solos may be in minor, because that's the blues, but his idea of what you are actually playing may be attributed to a lack of working theory knowledge and push you toward learning stuff you already know.
I went through a self-editing period back in my late teens where I felt like *I* was playing too much minor pentatonic, and so got heavily into jazz both to learn more scales and (more importantly) to open up my ears to richer harmonies. Went through a long period where I forced myself not to play pentatonics. Sometimes that worked well, but other times that was just shooting myself in the foot.
Somewhere in the ensuing 30+ years I realized that a great way to access richer harmonies without completely abandoning all the pentatonic lines and muscle memory I'd aquired was to stop thinking about playing those scales off the root of the chord. Instead, think about how a pentatonic scale built on either other scale degrees or (gasp!) non-chord tones allows you to access tensions that can move in and out of consonance.
E.g., if the band is vamping on a D chord you could play a D minor pentatonic (or D major pentatonic) and the resulting harmonies would be a bit pedestrian. But if you play an F minor pentatonic over that D chord now you've got #9, #11, b13, b7, and b9 ...you've turned that pedestrian D chord into an edgy, unstable fully-loaded textbook altered dominant chord...you can still use all your hokey minor pentatonic licks only by recontextualizing them harmonically they don't sound as tired.
Somewhere in the ensuing 30+ years I realized that a great way to access richer harmonies without completely abandoning all the pentatonic lines and muscle memory I'd aquired was to stop thinking about playing those scales off the root of the chord. Instead, think about how a pentatonic scale built on either other scale degrees or (gasp!) non-chord tones allows you to access tensions that can move in and out of consonance.
E.g., if the band is vamping on a D chord you could play a D minor pentatonic (or D major pentatonic) and the resulting harmonies would be a bit pedestrian. But if you play an F minor pentatonic over that D chord now you've got #9, #11, b13, b7, and b9 ...you've turned that pedestrian D chord into an edgy, unstable fully-loaded textbook altered dominant chord...you can still use all your hokey minor pentatonic licks only by recontextualizing them harmonically they don't sound as tired.
I think it really depends on the music genre, the song's mood, character, etc...
Sometimes, I'm looking for the most obnoxious and "nastiest" chord sounds and chord progression, just don't try it in the Country Music or in Pop.
Man there is so much to learn that you haven't done. Id strongly suggest learning arpeggios. If you can just play Major, Minor, and Dominants (1, 3, 5 and 7), you can navigate any chord chart. From there you invert those arpeggios so you can play the shapes starting on the 3 or 5 or 7 instead of the root. That will really unlock the fretboard for you and let you harmonize chords instead of just going to the root and playing the same box over and over.
What you want to be able to do is attack chords with different approaches. For example, you can play the minor scale with the standard box shape that spans across 4 frets, but you can also stretch it out to 6 frets. Meaning (in terms of scale tones) you would play the 6th on the same string as the 5th and then on the next string you'd play the 7, octave and 9th. That can unlock different phrasing right there.
To take it to another level, you can then play the minor scale starting on the 3rd of 6th tone of a major chord. So over A major, you can play C# minor pentatonic
My point there is that you don't have to abandon that minor shape, you just need to be nimble enough to know where it applies for each chord. If you are just hitting the root and then playing a pentatonic, thats going to sound very boring an unsophisticated. You want to be able to see a major chord coming and know that even if it is root based rock you can play your fill based on a different note in the scale.
If you add arpeggios to the mix you are now able to connect the notes in even more ways. So in A major you can start a lick on C# minor pentatonic and end it with a Major inversion if you want too. Suddenly your bass fills are far more creative then some guy just playing box shapes all night.
EDIT : just saw Bob Ross was essentially saying a lot of the things I just did. Sorry for the redundancy.
What you want to be able to do is attack chords with different approaches. For example, you can play the minor scale with the standard box shape that spans across 4 frets, but you can also stretch it out to 6 frets. Meaning (in terms of scale tones) you would play the 6th on the same string as the 5th and then on the next string you'd play the 7, octave and 9th. That can unlock different phrasing right there.
To take it to another level, you can then play the minor scale starting on the 3rd of 6th tone of a major chord. So over A major, you can play C# minor pentatonic
My point there is that you don't have to abandon that minor shape, you just need to be nimble enough to know where it applies for each chord. If you are just hitting the root and then playing a pentatonic, thats going to sound very boring an unsophisticated. You want to be able to see a major chord coming and know that even if it is root based rock you can play your fill based on a different note in the scale.
If you add arpeggios to the mix you are now able to connect the notes in even more ways. So in A major you can start a lick on C# minor pentatonic and end it with a Major inversion if you want too. Suddenly your bass fills are far more creative then some guy just playing box shapes all night.
EDIT : just saw Bob Ross was essentially saying a lot of the things I just did. Sorry for the redundancy.
It's a "jam band," with three guitarists and two drummers -- as discussed earlier in the thread.
A "jam band" MUST also have some kind of genre, style understanding; otherwise,
the first guitar player would "fantasize" about Wes Montgomery,
the other would pretend to be "John McLaughlin", and
the third would be a la Tony Iommi from Black Sabbath.
When one drummer - a la "Max Roach", the other pretends to be Danny Carey from "Tool".
And, of course, the bass player is SOLIDLY the "Root & the 5th" permanent student.
Plus, the main factor uniting those musicians - express yourself in FREE JAZZ.
By "jam band" I didn't mean simply "a band that jams." I thought the term was widely understood to refer to a genre that includes such bands as the Grateful Dead, Phish, Widespread Panic, and the String Cheese Incident.
That said, the lineup you've listed would make for a pretty interesting, band!
All of the bands you just mentioned play a lot more than pentatonic stuff. Phish, especially, are highly trained in music theory and orchestration. A lot of times Phish isn't jamming when people think they are. Their early stuff has a high percentage of composed sections that utilize everything BUT minor pentatonic.
I find myself fingering the root notes differently when moving to the major pentatonic scale. There is a pretty good diagram and explanation of this here, as this guy explains it much better than I can. See the shapes on the lower part of the page.
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Changing which finger you use for the root changes the shape or the "box" as has been mentioned. And that does influence your note choices. In the minor pentatonic I will often play the root with my index finger, but in the major I often use the middle finger (in the E shape) so the 3rd and 6th fall easily to the index. Pretty much eliminates the b3 out of the box.
I don't use the d shape much on bass.
In the A shape I will root with index if going down and middle if going up,
In the C shape and G shape I root with the pinky.
So, I have tried to train myself to be cognizant of how I finger the root depending on what shape I want to use and where I want to end up.
You see this in piano fingering, the thumb crossover changes depending on key and keyboard scale shape and whether you are playing up or down the scale.
It may be pretty basic, but it really helps to take you out of the pentatonic box. Spend some time observing your fingering patterns and defining them. Then try the majors with the E shape middle root and the G shape pinky root and see how that works for you.
The final point is as you finish a passage and you are approaching the next ONE, decide what finger you'd like to end up on the root with, as then you have already positioned yourself for the right shape and scale you want to use for the next passage.
And, for the OP, I'm surprised the guitarist's, as instructors, didn't offer this idea as one way to achieve the musical goals they were looking for. I'm not a music instructor, but this seems pretty basic in terms of technique changes, simply modifying your fingering habits.
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Changing which finger you use for the root changes the shape or the "box" as has been mentioned. And that does influence your note choices. In the minor pentatonic I will often play the root with my index finger, but in the major I often use the middle finger (in the E shape) so the 3rd and 6th fall easily to the index. Pretty much eliminates the b3 out of the box.
I don't use the d shape much on bass.
In the A shape I will root with index if going down and middle if going up,
In the C shape and G shape I root with the pinky.
So, I have tried to train myself to be cognizant of how I finger the root depending on what shape I want to use and where I want to end up.
You see this in piano fingering, the thumb crossover changes depending on key and keyboard scale shape and whether you are playing up or down the scale.
It may be pretty basic, but it really helps to take you out of the pentatonic box. Spend some time observing your fingering patterns and defining them. Then try the majors with the E shape middle root and the G shape pinky root and see how that works for you.
The final point is as you finish a passage and you are approaching the next ONE, decide what finger you'd like to end up on the root with, as then you have already positioned yourself for the right shape and scale you want to use for the next passage.
And, for the OP, I'm surprised the guitarist's, as instructors, didn't offer this idea as one way to achieve the musical goals they were looking for. I'm not a music instructor, but this seems pretty basic in terms of technique changes, simply modifying your fingering habits.
The Difference Between Major and Minor Pentatonic Scales, Patterns & Roots | Guitar Music Theory
"...the pentatonic scale is either major or minor depending on which note is functioning as the root.
"C major and A minor pentatonic are the same notes and patterns. The difference is in which note is functioning as the root. If C is the root, meaning that tonally everything revolves around and resolves on C, then you call it C major pentatonic. If A is the root, meaning that tonally everything revolves around and resolves on A, then you call it A minor pentatonic. When C is the root, then the other scale notes are major intervals in relation to C (root, 2nd, major 3rd, 5th, 6th). When A is the root, then the other scale notes are minor intervals in relation to A (root, minor 3rd, 4th, 5th, b7th)."
A minor pentatonic: A C D E G A (formula 3 2 2 3 2)
C major pentatonic: C D E G A C (formula 2 2 3 2 3)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now.
I was "so-odling" (from soloing & noodling - /so͞odling/) to some | Dm7 | G7 | vamp.
I've tried the easiest pentatonic scale - C major or A minor pentatonic.
The pentatonic notes C D E G A C/A C D E G A were OK for my chord progression/vamp.
Next, I've tried D minor pentatonic: D F G A C D.
A different melodic "feel" but those notes were still OK for that | Dm7 | G7 | vamp.
Next, I've tried G major pentatonic: G A B D E G.
Again, those notes were, kind of, OK for that vamp.
Now, let's orderly merge all those various PENTATONIC notes that were "OK" for "soodling" with my
Dm7 | G7 | vamp. Here is what we have = C D E F G A B C
It means that
if I play ANY of those C D E F G A B C notes in my bass-line, bass riffs, bass fills/runs, etc...
I will be accused of playing "too much in (minor/major) pentatonic."
Here is more.
From my personal experience, sometimes I tend to "insert" some chromatic tones
(that sound OK for my taste) into the diatonic scale like:
A C (C#) D (D#) E G (G#) A - from A minor pentatonic or
D F (F#) G (G#) A (C#) D - from D minor pentatonic, or
G A (A#) B D E G - from G major pentatonic scale.
Now, let's re-merge again those PENTATONIC scale notes with some added chromatics =
C (C#) D (D#) E F (F#) G (G#) A (A#) B C.
Wow, I have 12 pitches derived from PENTATONIC (major/minor).
But of course, I'm not going to play them in the order I wrote it down.
I'm going to "shake" all those notes and completely change the notes' order to confuse some ANTI - PENTATONIC theorists, but I'm still going to play those Pentatonics with some "embellishments".
To sum up.
I've just discovered that I'm a Totally Lost to Pentatonics beginner bass player.
"...the pentatonic scale is either major or minor depending on which note is functioning as the root.
"C major and A minor pentatonic are the same notes and patterns. The difference is in which note is functioning as the root. If C is the root, meaning that tonally everything revolves around and resolves on C, then you call it C major pentatonic. If A is the root, meaning that tonally everything revolves around and resolves on A, then you call it A minor pentatonic. When C is the root, then the other scale notes are major intervals in relation to C (root, 2nd, major 3rd, 5th, 6th). When A is the root, then the other scale notes are minor intervals in relation to A (root, minor 3rd, 4th, 5th, b7th)."
A minor pentatonic: A C D E G A (formula 3 2 2 3 2)
C major pentatonic: C D E G A C (formula 2 2 3 2 3)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now.
I was "so-odling" (from soloing & noodling - /so͞odling/) to some | Dm7 | G7 | vamp.
I've tried the easiest pentatonic scale - C major or A minor pentatonic.
The pentatonic notes C D E G A C/A C D E G A were OK for my chord progression/vamp.
Next, I've tried D minor pentatonic: D F G A C D.
A different melodic "feel" but those notes were still OK for that | Dm7 | G7 | vamp.
Next, I've tried G major pentatonic: G A B D E G.
Again, those notes were, kind of, OK for that vamp.
Now, let's orderly merge all those various PENTATONIC notes that were "OK" for "soodling" with my
Dm7 | G7 | vamp. Here is what we have = C D E F G A B C
It means that
if I play ANY of those C D E F G A B C notes in my bass-line, bass riffs, bass fills/runs, etc...
I will be accused of playing "too much in (minor/major) pentatonic."
Here is more.
From my personal experience, sometimes I tend to "insert" some chromatic tones
(that sound OK for my taste) into the diatonic scale like:
A C (C#) D (D#) E G (G#) A - from A minor pentatonic or
D F (F#) G (G#) A (C#) D - from D minor pentatonic, or
G A (A#) B D E G - from G major pentatonic scale.
Now, let's re-merge again those PENTATONIC scale notes with some added chromatics =
C (C#) D (D#) E F (F#) G (G#) A (A#) B C.
Wow, I have 12 pitches derived from PENTATONIC (major/minor).
But of course, I'm not going to play them in the order I wrote it down.
I'm going to "shake" all those notes and completely change the notes' order to confuse some ANTI - PENTATONIC theorists, but I'm still going to play those Pentatonics with some "embellishments".
To sum up.
I've just discovered that I'm a Totally Lost to Pentatonics beginner bass player.
