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Double Bass Tone?, Volume?, Resonance?, Can't explain, please read.

Bob Branstetter wrote:
I will not go into describing the process, but if you are interested enough to buy the book (about $30) from Mr. Strobel, you can find out the details.

Please do not take it personally, but this sounds like a book selling spam to me. Without going into undue details, you should be able to describe the process in a few words, to lift off that mysterious esoteric veil from the thing. A patent is always granted on the ground of a proven inventive step with respect to the state of the art at the time of filing. Otherwise, I'd rather go with ArnoldSchnitzer's common sense: a good bass sounds good now, not next year... or after the shakes!;)
 
Originally posted by olivier
Bob Branstetter wrote:

Please do not take it personally, but this sounds like a book selling spam to me. Without going into undue details, you should be able to describe the process in a few words, to lift off that mysterious esoteric veil from the thing. A patent is always granted on the ground of a proven inventive step with respect to the state of the art at the time of filing.

If you had taken the time to follow the URL I gave in the first message, you would find a section on Mr. Strobel's web page devoted to vibration de-damping. You would see that the book and the process were reviewed by Joseph Curtin in Strad Magazine (sorry - was that a spam for Strad?). You would see pictures of the mechanical device on a violin and cello. You would see that there is more recent scientific information in a paper by physicist Dr. Gottfried Lehmann. Part I was published in the German periodical Instrumentenbau-Zeitschrift of 9-10/2000. Part II appeared in the 11/12-2000 issue, including graphical data of measured response improvements after vibration. Part III appeared in the July/August issue 7/8-2001, and compared modal analyses before and after vibration treatment by the Lehmanns, father Dr. Gottfried, and son professional cellist Matthias, who built on the work of their friend and advisor, Prof. von Reumont, and were later assisted in their modal analysis measurements by Martin Schleske.

Personally, I don't care if you think the process is bogus and prefer to believe that an instrument does not get better after being played. That's your right. I am not going to reveal details of the process because I am happy to know that there are still a few brave publishers who will risk their time and money to bring important scientific papers about the violin family to the US that are published in (to us) foreign languages. This book is not in the public domain and is copyrighted.

I did not understand your reference to the patents. I included the patent number. Since I do not read German, I haven't checked to see if German patents on available online like US patents are, but if you read German, I'm sure there is some way you could get a copy of the patent to read.
 
The photos show a very simple apparatus- a two-piece plexiglass clamp that attaches to the bridge and a small DC motor with an eccentric weight. The only instrumentation mentioned is a stroboscope to determine speed to compute frequency and amplitude. Looks like if you had the strobe you could build the shaker very inexpensively with hand tools. A pair of small pillow block bearings, motor, scrap steel and screws. I suspect I have enough materials in my junkbox to make one ;-)

What would be needed of course is Strobel's notes on how much and how long to shake that thang.

I'm still tempted to lay my new bass in front of my 200MB, hook up a signal generator and start making microcracks. Sweep from 20-200 Hz, and increase amplitude until a seam opens or the soundpost comes loose ;-)
 
Originally posted by mje
What would be needed of course is Strobel's notes on how much and how long to shake that thang.
Aah - someone who actually looked!!!

You're right the vibrators are not all that had to make, but you actually need several different ones to cover the required range (40 - 15,000 Hz) and you need to use ball bearings. Professor Reumont sells bearing blocks that are very light weight and capable of sustained high speed operation. Unfortunately, they are not for sale in the USA. You have to send a German money order and it takes about 6 weeks to get them. The eccentric weight has to change with the speed or you will have too much or too little vibration. Too little does nothing, too much can actually damage the instrument. This is were the Reumont book (from Strobel) comes in. Just sweeping thru wouldn't do that much good. It has to be very systematic or it won't work. Certain frequencies require hours of vibration while others require minutes. A stroboscope that has an accurate range up to 15,000 rpm is required to do the job right. The strobe is used to not only determine the frequency, but also to detect variations in the frequency that occur as the stresses are removed. You also need a high quality variable DC power supply to insure that you are getting constant power to the small DC motors. The sound post position has to be checked frequently because the vibrations make it dance all over the place.
Prof. Reumont also describes a method in the book to eliminate wolfs that is quite different from the usual weight on the string below the bridge.
 
Originally posted by arnoldschnitzer
Sorry, Bob--I don't buy it. These "playing in" schemes have been around for centuries and have never become widespread. Why?
Very simple my friend. While it is true that many of the "playing in" systems don't work, it is also true that dealers have managed to convice the players that they have to have an old played in instrument if they want the best or will have to wait years for the newer ones to age and be played in. I know of several makers who use this system on their newly made instruments and then deny that they use vibration dedamping. I sincerely wish that we were located closer to each other so that I could treat one of your new Standard basses. A blind fold test with another identical bass would prove very interesting.

I don't think it is fair to group Prof. Reumont's work with the other "schemes" that have been around for centuries. There has been good scientific testing and documentation to back it up. Just because it has not become widely accepted does not mean the it is not valid. Good violin makers and execllent bass makers (Like you) are reluctant to change because they were taught to do things like their teacher did and in general produce a superior product. While I believe in "don't fix it if it ain't broke", I believe sometimes we don't know if weather it is broke or not.
 
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
You're saying this to a guy that uses a laser to work on fingerboards?

I dunno, Bob. Mosta these guys, if it works, it works. Maybe your experience is different, but...
Yes, I'm saying it to a guy who uses a laser. A laser is just another measuring tool. I'll bet he still uses scrapers and planes just like the rest of us too. Actually, I was referring to the advances made in the scientific community. People who have made a study of trying to find out WHY things work rather HOW things seem to work. We don't have too many bass makers here in the midwest, so most of the other makers I know are violin makers. Thousands of violin makers around the world are members of the Catgut Acoustical Society, but not too many are bass makers. CAS has been around since about 1950 and has thousands of members around the world, yet there are still many who wouldn't be caught dead reading an article in the CAS journal. It's just not the traditional way of doing things.

Perhaps I need to rephrase my "if it's broke" business. Sometimes you don't know something is as good as it can be because you have not experienced anything better.

Also, please do not interpret my remarks to Arnold as being disrespectful. I have the utmost respect for him both as a maker and a person. But, occationally we disagree.
 
I just have to say that Arnold (and Will's) New Standard basses would knock your socks off right out of the shop. I've played most of the carved basses he's made, and I'm compelled to go along with the idea that the sound is there from the start or it's not.
In another field where I'm on surer footing, I've observed the process that accompanies technological advances: competitors form out of thin air and flood the market within 5 years, every time, patent or no patent, and the price tanks.
My belief is that if that device really works, the same thing will happen.
 
Originally posted by Don Higdon
I just have to say that Arnold (and Will's) New Standard basses would knock your socks off right out of the shop. I've played most of the carved basses he's made, and I'm compelled to go along with the idea that the sound is there from the start or it's not.
I've never had any doubt that Arnold produces a quite superior instrument. I just happen to believe that his instrument will improve as it is played over the years and become even better than they are now. Vibration Dedamping is simply a way to speed that process along. If an instrument is already played in, Vibration Dedamping will do nothing.

I can't see that this process will ever make a killing for any individual as Prof. Reumont has chosen to put the process out in print for anyone in the world to try use as they see fit. I tried it and I'm a believer. I would like to think that there are more open minded makers who will try the process and judge it on it's merits. Declaring that something bogus without trying it does nothing for advancing the craft.
 
The esteemed Mr. Bollbach has a way of cutting through the haze...but seriously, Bob--I consider myself open to technological advances. I'm just skeptical. The idea of creating micro-fractures in the hide glue of laminated plates, which are no longer made with hide glue, seems like conjecture. Has anyone seen or measured these? However, I am willing to read the information and possibly be convinced. By the way, there was not an inkling of disrespect in any of your posts. On the contrary, they were most flattering, and well-reasoned.
 
As I said in my first posts, it was Mr. Strobel and I who came up with the theory of the glue. Prof. Reumont makes no such assumption. We were looking for a way to explain why plywood basses seem to respond so well to vibration dedamping. Glue seemed to us to be the common thread.

I realize that you are skeptical. So was I before I tried it for myself. I don't know the structural reason why it works, but it does! I urge you to get a copy of the Reumont book and read it cover to cover. If you don't like what you read, you're only out the cost of one very inexpensive book. However, it may just change your mind on this subject.
 
Ok, I went to the link. It's a mechanical vibrator with appropriate freq and amplitudes applied directly onto the table, near the bridge:

http://www.henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm

The process is sufficiently intriguing to be interesting, there is some rational to it. It's controversial and I remain skeptical (with all due respect). A well-designed test with Arnold's basses could make me change my mind.
 
I'm willing to entertain the theory of microfractures in the glue, based on the reports by many string players and luthiers that newly repaired instruments require some playing to "loosen up" following regluing of the table. But before I accept it I'd want to see some SEM photos showing this micriofractures. I'd also want to see some examination of changes in Young's modulus from vibration in tonewoods, or perhaps some interferometry of the top plates of assembled instruments over time and vibration.
 
That's the problem: how do you evaluate objectively the tonal quality of a bass? How do you compare it to another one? And to the tone it had before being dedamped? Young modulus and Single Electron Microscopy won't help much, even if they could be measured non-destructively.

Blind-test with a well chosen jury might make it. Chose two new ply basses of Arnold's production with the closest tonal qualities as possible. One would serve as control, the other one as the test bass. Jury has to pick those basses without seeing them, then come back after dedamping and evaluate them again...
 
Originally posted by olivier
Blind-test with a well chosen jury might make it. Chose two new ply basses of Arnold's production with the closest tonal qualities as possible. One would serve as control, the other one as the test bass. Jury has to pick those basses without seeing them, then come back after dedamping and evaluate them again...
I like the idea of a blind listeneing test, but with a period of days between testing, it would be hard to be truely objective. Do we sequester the jury so that they don't discuss which one they liked untreated and then treated? And what about how the player? Will how quickly or slowly the intrument responds be evident to a blind jury? I doubt it.

Let me offer this as a better test. Have a jury of players. Bring them in one by one and have them play the instruments untreated while blindfolded. Then, if one of the untreated instruments is judged to be "better" in the opinion of the players, take the other (the lesser of the two) and have it treated with vibration dedamping. If the untreated instruments were judged exactly equal then choose one at random for vibration dedamping. After treatment, repeat the blindfold player testing. If the untreated "better" instrument is still the favorite, then that would show that vibration dedamping did not work. However, if the treated instrument were the new favorite, I would think that would be conclusive for THIS test.

If you don't like this test, perhaps were could find some old Arthur Andersen guys to devise a better test.
 
I think using two instruments introduces too many variables (differences in wood density, finish, set-up, etc). What about rigging up some kind of mechanical output device to pluck or bow the strings, then measure the output with a decibal meter and frequency analyzer. Do this before and after the "dedamping", and record the results. If the process shows measurable change, and that change is positive, sign me up. It would also make sense, if the result is positive, to disassemble the instrument and try to analyze the changes, rather than conjecture about it. I guess what I'm saying is that the evidence to date seems anecdotal and I'd like to see scientific method employed.
 
I agree with Arnold that two instruments are not enough sample size to be statistically accurate. However, at this stage of the game I think it is a little absurb to be dreaming up methodology for scientific testing before we use our ears and senses. Where are we going to find a laboratory with the necessary equipment to run such a test and who is going to pay for it? It would be great if CAS or TOBI-L or some other scientific acoustical society would undertake this study, but shouldn't this really be step two rather than step one. If we can't hear any difference, is there really a need to continue with extensive scientific testing? If we can hear a difference, then perhaps that would be the time to get serious about scientific testing. I would be willing to trust the ears of Arnold, Jeff and knowledgeable players and luthiers in their geographic area to see if there is a need to go to step two.
 
This thread is fascinating to me. When it comes to luthiery, in general I lurk and learn quietly. When we're talking measurement and science, well, my big mouth can't stay shut.

Arnold referred to "psycho-acoustics" in his first post, and now we're talking about ways of "objectively" analyzing the tonal quality of a bass. There's no way one can sensibly think about and model the bass "process" without the psycho-acoustic component. Humans like music, they make all kinds of intruments to play music, and when the sounds are made they go into a human brain for processing and appreciation. The psycho-acoustic part is the critical component here, IMHO.

Problem is, human subjects make lousy objects of scientific investigation. They change their minds. They lie. They are socialized into cultures that pre-condition their thinking. Yada yada yada. Does that mean you can't investigate sensibly what they think? No. Just makes it much harder to do careful science. A lot of people look at that problem and don't want to have anything to do with it; others have made some headway over the last century or so.

As someone who has committed a fair amount of science in this general area (people, not acoustics), I would look at the problem like this:

1) What about this effect players and luthiers have been talking about for centuries? Is there something to it? That is, can knowledgeable human beings (remember, we're talking bass players here -- thank God we're not talking about differences between drums or banjos) reliably distinguish between new instuments and aged intstruments? If such an effect can be observed, you might then want to explore its attributes. How "big" a tonal difference is noted? What are the qualitative characteristics of the difference? How widespread is the ability to discriminate in the bass-player population? The whole point of this is to confront this psycho-acoustic thing head-on.

As for how to do this, first let's assume that practicality and expense aren't a problem. As Arnold points out, there are way too many factors that influence tonal quality for a classic controlled experiment to work here. I won't give a big methodological justification, but I would want to pursue a design where there is a small number of expert "ears" -- that's the panel. The panel evaluates a LARGE POOL of basses (somewhere around 50 would be a good starting point). These basses have all variation in them that the world of basses produces. Given all that variation (and I would expect us to come up with some ways of describing and measuring these other factors), we add one more experimental factor: vibration dedampening. To cut to the chase, there are very good statistical methods (provided there is enough high-quality data) for assessing the influence of a single factor among many. What we'd be looking for here is a very strong influence of vibration dedampening that is independent of those other factors.

Even without the vibration dampening thing, I'd be interested to find out whether the discrimination effect is widely and consistently present in the population. This would addresss Arnold's sneaking suspicion that it's all in people's heads. You can never forget about those sneaky human subjects, though. The whole study would be absolutely founded on the careful use of language (carefully pre-tested and calibrated measurement instruments) to express and measure tonal characteristics.

2) I'd like some non-human assessment of the vibration dedampening effect. The spectrum analyzer could help here. Just because it doesn't "measure" a difference though, doesn't necessarily mean that people don't hear a difference. The first study tells me whether people hear a difference. What we're looking for here is some form of corroboration of the discrimation effect coming from a method that DOES exclude the psyco-acoustic aspect. Makes me more comfy when completely different methods arrive at the same result. Makes me more confident that I am, in fact, going to a place that is an actual place.

3) I wouldn't even begin to hypothesize reasons for the discrimation effect until I know more about it through the first study. The micro-crack thing sounds like it might have legs and is an excellent example of a good, testable hypothesis. The fact that Bob frames it as a testable hypothesis offered up in service of old-bass theory is a sign that Bob's a very clear thinker; lots of people skip the testing and move right to religion. Trouble is, the testing and subsequent theorizing is not relevant here in the absence of knowledge on the discrimation effect in general.

To me, the whole thing is fascinating. As an experienced woodworker new to viol lutherie, I love the long line of traditional knowledge and methods borne from experience. But we don't know everything, and it's entirely possible that some of the things we "know" might be illusory or "mis-known". Careful thinking and experimenting -- the hallmarks of good science -- surely can only add to the mix. It's true at the same time that most of the good stuff has been discovered and mapped already.

To finish, I'm really interested in that laser, Arnold! I assume you use it for assessing longitudinal straightness of fingerboards? What's the advantage over a really good straightedge? I've got good straightedges (one of them plus/minus .0002" per foot); feeler gauges and light shining through cracks have always worked for me. You have to hold that straightedge with one hand, though. Be nice to free up that hand...

It started off as my two cents worth. Looking at it now, I'd say it's about two bits. I'll shut up and go back to learning mode now.