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Totally Hand Built....
- Thread starter sps500
- Start date
My experiences have shown me two things that I believe to be undeniable.....
1) CNC's main advantage, by far, is repeatability. Not time savings, labor savings and certainly not stress reduction. I love my CNC machine but the one thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that it is a LOT of machine to keep up with. That beings the case though, I wouldn't go back or trade it for all the handheld routers in the world.
2) Wood removal by any other name is still wood removal.
1) CNC's main advantage, by far, is repeatability. Not time savings, labor savings and certainly not stress reduction. I love my CNC machine but the one thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that it is a LOT of machine to keep up with. That beings the case though, I wouldn't go back or trade it for all the handheld routers in the world.
2) Wood removal by any other name is still wood removal.
I agree completely. And the repeatability of the CNC machine depends completely on 1) the mechanics of the machine being tight and 2) well designed, solid fixturing. Old-school stuff.
There have been threads here on TB showing mass-produced instruments with big quality control problems, like bridges in the wrong place, or routed parts that don't match. How can this be??? They were cut with CNC machines, which are accurate to 0.001", right??
Well, if the holding fixture is sloppy, and the body blank slips a little bit in it during the cutting cycle, it doesn't really matter if the computer tells the router bit to go to a precise place. Or a wood chip gets jammed between the body blank and the fixture, kicking it off to the side 1/16". The operator is too lazy to stop the machine, clear out the chip, and reset it. Nobody will notice. It's just another bass. And it's almost lunch time.
CNC is another giant step forward in technology, but the basics of manufacturing products don't really change.
I think I read somewhere that fodera do use CNC these days.
Magnus guitars does not, I think, if he does, it's minimal
Invalid Link Removed
Seibass doesn't have a CNC either.
www.seibass.com
I personally have no issue whatsoever with using CNC.
Remember that many small builders don't have their own CNC machine in house, but they have an outside shop CNC cut parts for them. That's very common these days. Most of the small Luthiers that I know that have CNC machines for their own use also do subcontract cutting for other Luthiers.
Surprisingly enough, we Luthiers often work together and do subcontract work for each other. We each have our own specialties and machines. I build my own basses, and I also supply parts and services to about a dozen other pro Luthiers here in the Los Angeles area.
Surprisingly enough, we Luthiers often work together and do subcontract work for each other. We each have our own specialties and machines. I build my own basses, and I also supply parts and services to about a dozen other pro Luthiers here in the Los Angeles area.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
We actually have two CNC-based machines. One we use for roughing out bodies and necks and the other (a "Plek") we use for leveling fingerboards and doing fret jobs.
Our decision to use these tools was not made lightly. They were HUGELY expensive purchases for a small shop like ours and have required a massive amount of specialized (and very expensive) labor to properly set them up and integrate them into the way that we work.
The upside has been that our very skilled luthiers have more time to do the things that matter most rather than spending a lot of time doing repetitive tasks over and over again.
It never made much sense (to me anyway) to have Vinny Fodera trace the same shape on a piece of wood 50 times a year and then cut it out on a jig saw when that time could be spent designing new models, hand carving a neck to a customer's precise specifications or creating a stunningly beautiful inlay.
So, like any other machine used in building, a CNC is merely a tool. Used well it can be a phenomenal one, but only if all of the things that are so vital to creating the finest instruments are in place. Things like wood selection, model design, a fanatical attention to detail, the right electronics, hardware, pickups, a finish process that enhances tone rather than stifling it....the list goes on and on.
Thus far I am not certain that using CNC (one of which we have been using for over three years and the other coming up on two years) has actually saved us a penny. But it has enabled us to have the really highest skilled aspects of building be focused on more intently and it has made certain aspects of quality control and building much more consistent.
I could personally build you a really poorly made Fodera 100% by hand (remember that I am not the skilled luthier in this bunch!) that would pale in comparison to our normal instruments that are now partially made using a CNC. Which would be better?
Of course, our culture here ensures that there is still an incredible amount of hand time going into every instrument that we make to get them as close to "perfect" as we are capable of...
I hope that this makes sense.
Kindest regards,
Jason
Our decision to use these tools was not made lightly. They were HUGELY expensive purchases for a small shop like ours and have required a massive amount of specialized (and very expensive) labor to properly set them up and integrate them into the way that we work.
The upside has been that our very skilled luthiers have more time to do the things that matter most rather than spending a lot of time doing repetitive tasks over and over again.
It never made much sense (to me anyway) to have Vinny Fodera trace the same shape on a piece of wood 50 times a year and then cut it out on a jig saw when that time could be spent designing new models, hand carving a neck to a customer's precise specifications or creating a stunningly beautiful inlay.
So, like any other machine used in building, a CNC is merely a tool. Used well it can be a phenomenal one, but only if all of the things that are so vital to creating the finest instruments are in place. Things like wood selection, model design, a fanatical attention to detail, the right electronics, hardware, pickups, a finish process that enhances tone rather than stifling it....the list goes on and on.
Thus far I am not certain that using CNC (one of which we have been using for over three years and the other coming up on two years) has actually saved us a penny. But it has enabled us to have the really highest skilled aspects of building be focused on more intently and it has made certain aspects of quality control and building much more consistent.
I could personally build you a really poorly made Fodera 100% by hand (remember that I am not the skilled luthier in this bunch!) that would pale in comparison to our normal instruments that are now partially made using a CNC. Which would be better?
Of course, our culture here ensures that there is still an incredible amount of hand time going into every instrument that we make to get them as close to "perfect" as we are capable of...
I hope that this makes sense.
Kindest regards,
Jason
Do you experience people having issues with Foderas' instruments being made, using cnc tools?(I haven't read the whole thread and may have missed such issues being raised)
Just wondering, since you followed this up with quite a long post.
Jared - thanks for confirming on ACG. I wasn't sure if Alan did things 'by hand' or used a CNC machine. Frankly I couldn't care less - quality is quality. Knowing that it was done by hand makes it even better value.
There's something to be said for a person who can make a fine object using only hand tools, but really, using a CNC isn't a bad thing. One thing it does is allow the builder (person OR company) to place wood in a machine, start the process and do something else, assuming it's working properly. It still needs to be finish-shaped, but the rough work will be done. However, someone still needs to program it and that takes time, expertise that doesn't necessarily come with someone who works only with hand tools and great expense.
One thing that doesn't come with hand tools is great speed. On average, some operations can be done quickly with hand tools, but mass production isn't possible because, for almost every operation with a hand saw, some cleanup is needed and a table saw can be set up so edges can be glued after cutting without any extra steps- no planing, no jointing, nothing.
Another problem with hand tools is inaccuracy- It's possible to set a machine to cut parts consistently, to a specific dimension and with hand tools, it's usually necessary to make repeated passes, which means that the last one(s) will be not enough and too much, even if the shavings from a hand plane are fluffy (they're literally fluffy, not curls that might be might be as thick as 1/64", which is fairly thick for plane shavings).
One thing that doesn't come with hand tools is great speed. On average, some operations can be done quickly with hand tools, but mass production isn't possible because, for almost every operation with a hand saw, some cleanup is needed and a table saw can be set up so edges can be glued after cutting without any extra steps- no planing, no jointing, nothing.
Another problem with hand tools is inaccuracy- It's possible to set a machine to cut parts consistently, to a specific dimension and with hand tools, it's usually necessary to make repeated passes, which means that the last one(s) will be not enough and too much, even if the shavings from a hand plane are fluffy (they're literally fluffy, not curls that might be might be as thick as 1/64", which is fairly thick for plane shavings).
The notion of something being completely hand built is sort of a romantic one, IMO. It harkens back to the days of Stadivarious. But the fact is, Stadivarious used tools that were much more advanced than what man had to use centuries before him.
A CNC is a tool. It's a cool, technologically advanced tool. I would have loved to have one many years back wen I was working in a furniture factory. I still would have had to fit everything together by hand, do the last finish sanding by hand, select pieces of wood and glue them together individually, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
A CNC is a tool. It's a cool, technologically advanced tool. I would have loved to have one many years back wen I was working in a furniture factory. I still would have had to fit everything together by hand, do the last finish sanding by hand, select pieces of wood and glue them together individually, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
The local luthier in my area says that he makes his money doing shop work for the local guitar stores & private clients. The guitars he builds are for his enjoyment, mostly.
Perfect sense, and I hope everyone, especially anyone who doubts CNC, reads your post.
I'm not an owner, but have played quite a few Fodera basses. They have all been stunningly immaculate. As you and others have been saying, CNC doesn't do the final fit and finish. Props to you all for your amazing craftsmanship.
I have no doubts about CNC, the OP asked about luthiers that makes the entire instrument by hand.
Nothing wrong in using CNC here. It´s just a tool. I don´t think Fodera have to give any explications about this (I have total respect for Jason for being so transparent about what Vinnie and the team use for building the basses), their basses are top notch.
Nothing wrong in using CNC here. It´s just a tool. I don´t think Fodera have to give any explications about this (I have total respect for Jason for being so transparent about what Vinnie and the team use for building the basses), their basses are top notch.
Bruce Johnson is great. He helped me out a great deal when I was epoxying a fretless neck
Actually, the OP singled out CNC machines from all other tools, as if they are some sort of soul leeching, devil machines.
