Trace Elliot Elf 2x8 vs. Rumble 2x10

[electricity17]

I searched for a minute, but couldn't find a specific comparison of these two cabinets. Has anyone compared the Elf 2x8 and the Rumble 2x10? I'm curious about how they match up in volume, but also in terms of tone.

To give some context, I was gigging awhile ago with an Elf head and a Rumble 2x10 cabinet, playing an American Standard Precision. The band was doing country / rock 'n' roll originals, two guitars, pedal steel, bass & drums. We played small clubs and bars, but we were reasonably loud in that context. I'm mainly a guitar player, so I traded the bass cab when the band split up. I might have another opportunity for another bass gig, so I'm looking at picking up a cab soon. I'm considering a Trace Elliot 2x8 because they have a good reputation and it looks portable. I'm asking about the Rumble 2x10 because that's my best point of comparison, and I wouldn't be opposed to getting another one if it's a better fit.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Is portability one of the things making you hesitate on grabbing the Rumble 2x10? Otherwise it sounds like it worked well for you.

 

[electricity17]

Yeah, portability would be one of the reasons. The 2x8 also matches with the Elf head, and the Faital speakers are supposed to sound good. It sounds like this new project might be more acoustic instruments, so I'm expecting lower stage volume. I guess I'll see when I get together with everybody.

But also I'm just trying to understand how the two cabinets compare in tone and volume. Are they going to have a similar feel or sound?

 

[Nebadon2000]

If you haven't heard the Trace 2x8 with it's Faital Pro drivers it will get your attention both with tone and volume for it's size

PS Cab also has slot on top for Elf Amp to keep secure

 

[TheReceder]

Fender 350 watts (?) @ $524

• Height:23"
• Width:19"
• Depth:14"
• Weight:39 lbs.

Elf 400 watts @ $579

• Height:21.2"
• Width:10.3"
• Depth:13.36"
• Weight:27 lbs.

I donated a rumble 100 to my church, and use an Elf head as a backup when I gig. I can't complain about either.

I never really trust wattage ratings. to me, I'd lean towards the Elf only because it's smaller and lighter. I can usually get whatever tone I need from any setup, I suspect the fender might have slighly better bottom end (?) But I may also prefer the Fatial over the Eminence drivers.

 

[electricity17]

Thanks for the help everybody, I appreciate the feedback.

 

[pholli00]

I searched for a minute, but couldn't find a specific comparison of these two cabinets. Has anyone compared the Elf 2x8 and the Rumble 2x10? I'm curious about how they match up in volume, but also in terms of tone.

To give some context, I was gigging awhile ago with an Elf head and a Rumble 2x10 cabinet, playing an American Standard Precision. The band was doing country / rock 'n' roll originals, two guitars, pedal steel, bass & drums. We played small clubs and bars, but we were reasonably loud in that context. I'm mainly a guitar player, so I traded the bass cab when the band split up. I might have another opportunity for another bass gig, so I'm looking at picking up a cab soon. I'm considering a Trace Elliot 2x8 because they have a good reputation and it looks portable. I'm asking about the Rumble 2x10 because that's my best point of comparison, and I wouldn't be opposed to getting another one if it's a better fit.

Invalid Link Removed

I came across this page while looking up wattage concerns. Let others weigh in, because this stuff is not my strong point. The second to last paragraph came as a real shock to me, because I would've have guessed the opposite. It says you need a head that's more powerful than the speakers, not less. I don't know if that's an issue in your case.

I would imagine that better heads at Trace Elliot know what they're doing, but it's something I don't think I've heard before.

I do have the Rumble 500 combo, and it weighs about as much as a large dog food bag, full.

Since you already have the Elf head, I'd be tempted to get the matching cabinet, but I'd like the option of going bigger if I wanted or felt I needed to, and 2x8 just seems too small.

 

[BOOG]

2x8 “too small” they say
Internet commentary cracks me up

 

[Plain Old Barry]

I've used the 2x8 with an Elf head provided in a rehearsal space over many months.

To me, it was suited to more grindy tones. It worked fine, was plenty loud with a decently loud drummer and two guitars. I couldn't find a fluffy deep tone in it at all. I personally own an Elf 1x10 cab I use at home. The 1x10 can get deeper, but the 2x8 was overall louder without the depth.

My usual gig rig is a TT-800 on a pair of Mark Bass Traveler 2x10's stacked vertically.

 

[electricity17]

Invalid Link Removed

I came across this page while looking up wattage concerns. Let others weigh in, because this stuff is not my strong point. The second to last paragraph came as a real shock to me, because I would've have guessed the opposite. It says you need a head that's more powerful than the speakers, not less. I don't know if that's an issue in your case.

Thanks for sharing the link. The small print at the bottom of item #5 in the article you linked says that this applies to "sound reinforcement application" which I assuming means the PA / FOH setup, and then goes on to say this is not recommended for guitar amps, etc. So I don't think they're suggesting that for bass amps.

And thanks everyone for the input. Plain Old Barry, I appreciate your description from playing the 2x8 with the Elf, very helpful.

 

[pholli00]

Thanks for sharing the link. The small print at the bottom of item #5 in the article you linked says that this applies to "sound reinforcement application" which I assuming means the PA / FOH setup, and then goes on to say this is not recommended for guitar amps, etc. So I don't think they're suggesting that for bass amps.

And thanks everyone for the input. Plain Old Barry, I appreciate your description from playing the 2x8 with the Elf, very helpful.

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Wasnex]

I came across this page while looking up wattage concerns. Let others weigh in, because this stuff is not my strong point. The second to last paragraph came as a real shock to me, because I would've have guessed the opposite. It says you need a head that's more powerful than the speakers, not less. I don't know if that's an issue in your case.

IMHO you are correct and should ignore the advice to overpower your cabs.

I think this is what they are getting at. The RMS power rating is sort of a long term average. Music is dynamic so the power levels changes constantly. The assumption is a speaker can handle up to 2X the RMS power but only for a short time. This is usually called Program power.

The problem with this assumption is it relates mostly to the thermal capacity of the speakers voice coil, rather than the mechanical excursion limits of the cone and suspension. As long as excursion is small, the voice coil can handle short transients that are 2X the RMS power rating. This assumes the power also dips below the RMS rating to avoid the build up of too much heat.

For bass you also need to also consider Mechanical power handling. If you are feeding a woofer power at a mid range frequency where excursion is small, yes it can handle short peaks at the Program power rating. However as the frequency drops below about 500hz, cone excursion starts to increase. At some frequency below 100hz, cone excursion is likely to exceed Xmax with less than the driver's RMS power rating.

The mechanical power rating is not included on driver spec sheets. The reason is because mechanical power handling varies with cab design and tuning. By this I mean if you put the same driver in different cab designs, the amount of power it can handle safely varies.


Here are the basic specifications for an Eminence 2512

Notice it's rated 250WRMS/500W program.


Here are the excursion charts for some different box designs.

Notice the mechanical power handling for all four designs is well below the 250W RMS power rating. Also notice a HPF is specified for each design to protect the driver from over excursion below cutoff.

FYI Xmax for the 2512 is 4.9mm. Notice all of the traces turn gray when excursion exceeds 4.9mm.

Another thing you should consider. The power ratings are used for testing purposes. Some of the test standards require the driver to survive at full power for something like two hours. However, it may not be necessary for the driver to meet spec after the test. The driver may be degraded by the test. If you frequently hit a driver with peaks at full program power, it may not survive very long.

 

[Akiyama]

IMHO you are correct and should ignore the advice to overpower your cabs.

I think this is what they are getting at. The RMS power rating is sort of a long term average. Music is dynamic so the power levels changes constantly. The assumption is a speaker can handle up to 2X the RMS power but only for a short time. This is usually called Program power.

The problem with this assumption is it relates mostly to the thermal capacity of the speakers voice coil, rather than the mechanical excursion limits of the cone and suspension. As long as excursion is small, the voice coil can handle short transients that are 2X the RMS power rating. This assumes the power also dips below the RMS rating to avoid the build up of too much heat.

For bass you also need to also consider Mechanical power handling. If you are feeding a woofer power at a mid range frequency where excursion is small, yes it can handle short peaks at the Program power rating. However as the frequency drops below about 500hz, cone excursion starts to increase. At some frequency below 100hz, cone excursion is likely to exceed Xmax with less than the driver's RMS power rating.

The mechanical power rating is not included on driver spec sheets. The reason is because mechanical power handling varies with cab design and tuning. By this I mean if you put the same driver in different cab designs, the amount of power it can handle safely varies.


Here are the basic specifications for an Eminence 2512
View attachment 7287454

Notice it's rated 250WRMS/500W program.


Here are the excursion charts for some different box designs.
View attachment 7287463
Notice the mechanical power handling for all four designs is well below the 250W RMS power rating. Also notice a HPF is specified for each design to protect the driver from over excursion below cutoff.

FYI Xmax for the 2512 is 4.9mm. Notice all of the traces turn gray when excursion exceeds 4.9mm.

Another thing you should consider. The power ratings are used for testing purposes. Some of the test standards require the driver to survive at full power for something like two hours. However, it may not be necessary for the driver to meet spec after the test. The driver may be degraded by the test. If you frequently hit a driver with peaks at full program power, it may not survive very long.

Thank you for the thorough analysis. I have two follow up questions. Eminence uses descriptors of small, medium, and larger vented designs. What consititutes each category? Can you give some examples of combos/cabs that meet each category? Thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you for the thorough analysis. I have two follow up questions. Eminence uses descriptors of small, medium, and larger vented designs. What consititutes each category? Can you give some examples of combos/cabs that meet each category? Thanks!

Sorry, these questions exceed my knowledge level.

Aside from the obvious relative size relationships (small, medium, large), I suspect the actual size of the designs could relate to the volume the drivers are designed to work in. So in this respect, medium would fall near the center of range of acceptable cab sizes for a given driver. Let's assume we have three drivers A, B, and C. All of the drivers are 12s but they are designed to work optimally in different size boxes. A medium box for driver A could be a large box for driver B and a small box for driver C.

This is just a semi-educated guess though.

 

[darwin-bass]

I had an Elf 2x8 / Genzler 350 head for a while. Used it only at home as a practice amp and it was the best sounding bass amp I've ever used. I never played out with it though so I cannot comment on performance in the wild.

 

[Muaddibb]

I had the Elf 2x8, great cabinet and used it with my 3 piece (1 guitar and drums, then me) and it could barely keep up. It does have it's limitations. I've not played the 2x10 buy I do have a Fender Rumble 15 cab and I've practiced and played out with it and never had any problems. I also use a TT-800. The price on the Rumble 15 has creeped up from $399 to $419 but you could probably find a used for about $300, I have one for that price, I finally bit the bullet and got a pair of used Subway 15's so now all my other cabs are for sale.

 

[Wasnex]

Let's explore the advice to overpower your cab. Don't feel like you need to wade through all of this. Feel free to jump to the bottom and read the section in bold.

Section 5 recommends for the amp to be rated for 150% the speaker's RMS power rating. This is definitely better than feeding it 2X the RMS power rating (full program power) IMHO the best practice might be to use an amp rated for the speaker's full program power and then applying a limiter so the speaker sees no more than 75% of the program rating. This keeps the amp in the clean/linear portion of its operating range. There will be no perceivable distortion or compression added to the signal...unless you tickle the limiter. FYI, The goal should be to only tickle the limiter. You are asking for problems if you bury the limiter, which is what an inexperienced user might choose to do.

Overpowering is acceptable advice in the right circumstance, but it needs to be used with an appropriate understanding of whether it's going to destroy drivers or not. As I mentioned in my last post, this practice is relatively safe for mids, but it will frequently be inappropriate for low frequencies because it may push drivers over Xmax.

The reality is running the Program power at 150% of RMS will only gain 1.76dB (calculated). This is a useful increase in SPL, but is it worth the added risk to the drivers? FYI, The real world gain will be less as speakers exhibit power compression as they are pushed to their limits.

What is the SPL based on actual RMS power. AFAIK bass typically has about 12dB crest factor.

• Crest Factor is the ratio between peak power and RMS power. As mentioned in my last post, music is dynamic.

Lets assume we have a bass cab rated for 300RMS and it can actually handle transients at 150% of the RMS rating (450W). Let's also assume the cab has a 97dB 1W/1m Sensitivity rating.

At 450W RMS Program, the Peak power is 900W. Basically for a constant sign wave the peak power is 2X whatever RMS value you are referencing. However, if the bass has a 12dB crest factor, the actual long term RMS value is 12dB below 900Wpeak. This comes out to about 57W RMS.

• Decibel difference between 900W Peak and 56.79W RMS: 10Log(900/56.79) = ~12dB Crest Factor

SPL at ~57W RMS and 97dB 1W/1m sensitivity = ~114.6dB.

The peak SPL at 450W Program with uncompressed bass will be 12dB higher at ~126.6dBpeak.

• AFAIK the perceived SPL is more closely related to the long term SPL than transients. So the 114.6dB figure is more relevant than the 126.6dB peak.

Back to our consideration about how big of an amp to use:

Let's assume the speaker can only handle 300W RMS due to excursion limits. Hopefully it's clear this is a mechanical limit and not a thermal limit. The rig can still easily handle 57W and produce 114.6dB long term SPL, but the peak SPL must be limited to ~124.8dB. In other words you have to shave 1.76dB off the peaks, which reduces the crest factor to 11.08dB. This means you need 1.76dB of compression or limiting My guess is most amps will experience more than 1.76dB of compression if pushed to the limit. Also the preamp in many amps will become more compressed if you push the gain.

What do you think will happen if you use an amp that can produce more power than the speaker can handle without any limiting? It depends on how much sense and restraint you have. It's certainly doable, but if you are the type of person who likes to explore how loud your rig can play without any consideration for what happens if you exceed its limits, then you will probably be in for an unpleasant surprise. Using an overpowered amp can also lead to an unpleasant surprise if your cab is not capable of playing as loud as you require.

 

[BOOG]

I've used the 2x8 with an Elf head provided in a rehearsal space over many months.

To me, it was suited to more grindy tones. It worked fine, was plenty loud with a decently loud drummer and two guitars. I couldn't find a fluffy deep tone in it at all. I personally own an Elf 1x10 cab I use at home. The 1x10 can get deeper, but the 2x8 was overall louder without the depth.

My usual gig rig is a TT-800 on a pair of Mark Bass Traveler 2x10's stacked vertically.

Yeah, fluffy (Ampeg, Aguilar-ish) it won’t do. But it it will punch!
It’s a Trace Elliot so…