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Double Bass Traeger's Soundpost Thoughts

I don't think we have to worry about mass production and repeatability. Wood -- especially the way it's used in violin luthiery as opposed to Stratocaster-making -- is waaaay too highly variable a material.

Just consider the top plate alone: you're going to take that much wood, carve into that unique a shape, place it into any kind of environment, and have it last for decades and you expect them all to sound the same? Dream on.

(Mike -- I know that's not what you're expecting. I'm trying to build on what you're saying....)

I don't think folks like Traeger think that. He's an engineer -- I've worked with hundreds of them in my own professional life, helping them plan and figure out solutions to problems. There are a lot of tinkerers, conceptualizers and optimizers among them. Most of them are harmless, although a few are true crackpots. Some of them are even on to something.
 
Chris Fitzgerald said:
What? Please remember that some of the people who are reading your post might possibly be from Kentucky. :help:

Are you saying that te post should theoretically be made of the same stuff as the top and back?

No, I was just defining a term someone else had used (acoustic impedance) and speculating on how we might profitibly use the concept.

The acoustic impedance of the various parts of a bass would be a very complex, and probably unpredictable function of materials used, shape, age, etc. But it could be measured, and compared. Perhaps such measures could be used in predicting what shapes and materials for soundposts would work, without trying everything under the sun, ala Edison. Or perhaps luthiers making basses of alternative materials could use this data to guide selection. I suspect that some of those making carbon fiber instrments may have already done this.
 
mje said:
No, I was just defining a term someone else had used (acoustic impedance) and speculating on how we might profitibly use the concept.

The acoustic impedance of the various parts of a bass would be a very complex, and probably unpredictable function of materials used, shape, age, etc. But it could be measured, and compared. Perhaps such measures could be used in predicting what shapes and materials for soundposts would work, without trying everything under the sun, ala Edison. Or perhaps luthiers making basses of alternative materials could use this data to guide selection. I suspect that some of those making carbon fiber instrments may have already done this.
Everything under the sun HAS been tried, for the last 400 years. Where ya' been?
 
I've had a chance now to get pretty deep into the book in question, between rehearsals and performances. While the bulk of this thread is anecdotal, the information in Traeger's book is not. We must be careful to distinguish thoughtful hypotheses, or logical speculation if you prefer, from hard scientific data. Hard science requires that you throw out any idea that doesn't fit repeatable observations. For those of you with a background in science what I'm referring to is the difference between Aristotle and Galileo. Aristotle reasoned. Galileo tested. In many cases Galileo caused accepted Aristotelean ideas to be thrown out because it could be repeatably illustrated in practice that they were just plain wrong.

As regards the soundpost, some careful experimental observation has been done. Quite a bit of it by guys like Nick and Arnold. They measure with experience, their ears, and practice. Whether or not they want to admit it, they are doing (albeit undocumented) practical science. Also quite a bit of the same has been done by Traeger and Hutchins, who took it a step further and use finer objective measuring tools, and known physical relationships. At the risk of being chirping little birds among eagles, many of us have indulged in some not so well-reasoned as well as some perhaps well-reasoned speculation. What is important to note about the difference of approach is that Traeger came to his luthiery as an engineer first. That brings with it a conceptual understanding of what hard science has to offer that music and practical luthier craft do not always. It is necessary that Traeger puts his craft into a scientific context. He is no more a tinkerer than Charles Goodyear, or Nicholas Copernicus.

I will not list my own credentials as a "scientist", except to say that my among my teachers were men of the Manhattan Project and the inventor of Teflon, and the rest were not unlike them. Still, Kodachrome was invented by a pianist and a violinist, not a chemist or optical physicist. But you have to be color blind and tone deaf not to see the obvious link between wave physics, materials science, and luthiery. With all due respect to the variation of natural materials, wood has been subjected to scientific analysis quite carefully. By species, annual growth ring count, specific gravity, and many other parameters, it is as responsive to scientific investigation as anything else if one employs the scientific method carefully. As to consistency, Hauser built most of his guitar tops all from the same tree. While predictability was not "certain" it was far more likely.

Often in Traeger's book he refers to one or another "German scientific paper..." Is it any wonder that the bulk of the best made musical instruments for many years have come from that country? Do we really believe german luthiers dismiss these findings as "bubber-meiser"? If we choose to disregard the relationships Traeger has brought to light, it still would not surprise me to see mode matching processes as a standard part of factory musical instrument manufacture in China, Germany, Romania, or even Indiana. As far as soundpost impedance goes, it appears that the Kay company may have known something about it for many years. It is typical of companies to obscure "proprietary" scientific practices. We credit Gibson with humbucking pick-ups (and they have the patent), but the first side by side single coils that "reduced noise" were used on the Precision Bass made by Leo Fender. Fender never said a word about it. They just put them on there that way. They explained it as a "tone" thing. Hmmm. And Fender was neither luthier nor musician, he was well, go figure.....

In preparation for my own entry into bass luthiery, the first "make a bass" book I read was by Harry S. Wake, an amateur cellist, who after retiring from engineering, made over 100 instruments of the violin family and founded the Southern California Association of Violin Makers. The second series of books that I am still reading were written by Henry A. Strobel, a successful electronics engineer, among other things. The plans for the first bass I plan to build were drawn by one George Borun, who was among other things a chemical engineer, whose basses are played in major symphony orchestras.

Is there a pattern of repeatable observations in modern American violin family luthiery beginning to finally emerge? ;)
 
Dude, if it pleases you, perhaps I will. But truthfully, I am not too concerned with proving myself these days.

FYI, silver is what you make photographs with. Sorcerers receive information from the dead. Making jokes of peoples' names, etc. is what one resorts to when one can't come up with an intelligent response. :smug:
 
Lluthierlecturer said:
FYI, silver is what you make photographs with. Sorcerers receive information from the dead. Making jokes of peoples' names, etc. is what one resorts to when one can't come up with an intelligent response. :smug:


It's also actually a longstanding method of informal address here at TB...sometimes it precedes an intelligent response and sometimes not. Please don't take it too seriously - it is one tradition that can not be explained with science. :)
 
Sillysaucier said:
...Making jokes of peoples' names, etc. is what one resorts to when one can't come up with an intelligent response. :smug:
The "Fuquazation" of screen names is a long standing tradition on this site. It's good sport, and generally harmless. A rite of passage, a sign of acceptance. Nobody's bashing you.

I'm an engineering type myself, and a believer in science. Medical science is the reason my younger son is alive today. IMHO, scientific reasoning/ speculating/ testing/ documentation/ whatever is mostly worthless without a practical application. And there's always exceptions to the rules. I've never met Llicknoyd or played one of his basses, but they sure look purty online, and others speak highly of him and his work. That's where the rubber meets the road: Whatever level of science has/ has not been applied to the construction of a bass, does it play well and sound good?

Apparently, nicklloyd has built successful basses and Silversorcerer, as yet, has not. Not a slam, just an unscientific observation.
 
Silversorcerer said:
Dude, if it pleases you, perhaps I will. But truthfully, I am not too concerned with proving myself these days.

FYI, silver is what you make photographs with. Sorcerers receive information from the dead. Making jokes of peoples' names, etc. is what one resorts to when one can't come up with an intelligent response. :smug:
Despite my anal retention regarding terms and definitions, I'd take a bass from Nick or Arnold (and pay them generously for their labor and products, if I had the money...but only as a last resort LOL) any day before worrying about the story behind the name "Silversorcerer".

I just want to thank these guys for participating here with the only currency I have here ($words$) and inspire them to kick even greater ass! :bassist:

PS and you too SS, wherever your aspirations take you
 
I think it's worth noting that throughout the trade, there is the "craftsman/artist" group and the "scientific method" group, with many folks blending the two to one degree or other. Everyone will get along easier if they accept their polar opposites as worthy contributors to the trade.

-or-

There's more than one way to skin a cat. :)

And yes, you can take it as a compliment on TB if you are referred to as Sliversoarsforus, or whatever it was that Nnick the Llady'sMman said. ;)
 
Silversorcerer said:
Dude, if it pleases you, perhaps I will. But truthfully, I am not too concerned with proving myself these days.

FYI, silver is what you make photographs with. Sorcerers receive information from the dead. Making jokes of peoples' names, etc. is what one resorts to when one can't come up with an intelligent response. :smug:


Dude, Silversorcerers' your name? Way kewl!


Jeff Bollbach resorting to an unintelligent response.
 
Jet Flatblack said:
...Isn't that a scientific observation?
Scientific?
I've deduced from ChromeMerlin's post that he has not yet built a bass. (..."the first bass I plan to build...", etc.)
Schtickload, on the other hand, has studied with some famous luthiers, and has built some basses that show experience, innovation and finesse.
U dOnT gOtTa B a ScIeNtIsT 2 FiGgEr It OuT:-)
 
Silversorcerer said:
. . .I will not list my own credentials as a "scientist", except to say that my among my teachers were men of the Manhattan Project and the inventor of Teflon, and the rest were not unlike them. . .


In light of this piece of knowledge, I would ask that we temporarily set aside discussions of luthiery and other relevant endeavors to address a more pressing question:

How come the "non-stick" pan that I paid $65 for won't let go of my grilled cheese?
 
Kenny G's new book "How I Did It."

That is the best, Nnick!

Who was it who had a sig here that was a Norm McDonald quote from SNL?
"Kenny G is releasing a new album in time for the holiday season, called 'Happy Birthday Jesus, I hope you like crap'"

Sorry, what was the topic? Chas, I recommend PAM.
 
John Sprague said:
Who was it who had a sig here that was a Norm McDonald quote from SNL?
"Kenny G is releasing a new album in time for the holiday season, called 'Happy Birthday Jesus, I hope you like crap'"

I get to take credit for that one; it was my previous sig and one of my all time favorites. I bust it out for the holidays. For the record, the actual quote is (I think)

"Kenny G is releasing a new Christmas recording, so Happy Birthday Jesus, I hope you like crap."