Transcribing shifting time signatures (again)

[Trilobita]

So once again I am transcribing a somewhat complex (time signature-wise) song I like -- this time "Evst" by Hamferð:



My question is related to the very opening of the song, from 0:00 to 0:36. A single musical phrase is repeated four times, but the end of the fourth repetition is different both in melodic content and in length. Just to spare you the trouble of counting, the full musical phrase is 27 sixteenth notes long in repetitions 1-3 and 31 sixteenth notes long in repetition 4.

I have made a working attempt at transcribing it (i.e., the sound of an exported MIDI file lines up perfectly with the original song) but I am afraid my notation might be sub-optimal.

How would you separate the bars, and which time signatures would you use for each bar, including whatever additional solution you find appropriate for the longer fourth repetition?

(I thought it might be a good idea not to post my tentative solution straightaway so anyone interested enough to check out the song out might answer without any sort of bias.)

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Les Fret]

Good question. The first musical phrase of 27 eight notes could be notated as 7/8 plus 4/4 plus 6/4 because of the accents. Sometimes you even see a 7/8 notated as 3,5/4 which makes a lot of sense in this case because you can count it in quarter notes to simplify the phrase.

The last phrase could be notated as 3,5/4 plus 4/4 plus 4/4 plus 4/4.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Simplest is
6/4 & 3/8 for the 27 x 16th beat beat phrases.
7/4 & 3/8 for the 31 x 16th beat phrase.

 

[Les Fret]

Simplest is
6/4 & 3/8 for the 27 x 16th beat beat phrases.
7/4 & 3/8 for the 31 x 16th beat phrase.

That’s not what I hear in how the musical accents are divided.

 

[Groove Doctor]

That’s not what I hear in how the musical accents are divided.

When did accents in a phrase have to fall on the 1? It might be how you count it in your head, esp when first learning it, but that’s not always the best way to notate it for everybody else.

When writing charts the #1 rule is….. Keep it simple. The less time sig changes the better. (I’m coming from a classical/Jazz training background, BL, and Prog Rock. YMMV).

Also Listen to the drummer & transcribe the drum part. Would you notate their part differently?

 

[Trilobita]

Good question. The first musical phrase of 27 eight notes could be notated as 7/8 plus 4/4 plus 6/4 because of the accents. Sometimes you even see a 7/8 notated as 3,5/4 which makes a lot of sense in this case because you can count it in quarter notes to simplify the phrase.

The last phrase could be notated as 3,5/4 plus 4/4 plus 4/4 plus 4/4.

I can also count as per your suggestion without any problems -- though this is not the way I have transcribed it, it also works and instinctively makes sense for me.

Simplest is
6/4 & 3/8 for the 27 x 16th beat beat phrases.
7/4 & 3/8 for the 31 x 16th beat phrase.

Would you mind explaining why you would choose to notate it like that? I understand it might look more economical on the page in terms of how many times you change the time signature, but I am particularly puzzled by the longer beginning in repetition 4, whereas aurally there is no question (at least to me) that what is longer is the ending of the phrase. (Please note I am not challenging your opinion: I actually want to understand your rationale here.)

As for the way I have transcribed it: what do you think of

11/8|4/4|4/4 (for repetitions 1-3) and
11/8|4/4|6/4 (for repetition 4)?

This is how I have written it because the stress on the actual 12th sixteenth note as it is played seems to come immediately after a missed (implied) 12th beat. In short, I hear the beginning of the song as a bar of 5,5/4 but I find that notation weird -- hence 11/8. This 12th sixteenth note as it is actually played in the song has a very clear accent and is the exact point where you trip over in a relaxed listening -- hence I am hearing it as the beginning of a 4/4 bar. And, as I mentioned previously, the above notation conveys the aural impression of a longer ending in repetition 4, too.

Any comments are much appreciated. Feel free to point out any problems you see in my reasoning because I am genuinely interested in learning how to navigate this sort of thing.

Thanks to both of you for replying!

 

[Les Fret]

When did accents in a phrase have to fall on the 1? It might be how you count it in your head, esp when first learning it, but that’s not always the best way to notate it for everybody else.

When writing charts the #1 rule is….. Keep it simple. The less time sig changes the better. (I’m coming from a classical/Jazz training background, BL, and Prog Rock. YMMV).

I totally agree with your first remark. The accents don't have to fall on the one. I don't fully agree with the next remark in keeping it simple. Mostly that is a good starting point and it applies to many cases but not to all cases. The musical phrasing has to make some sense to the bars. In this case it makes sense to notate it the way I suggested because I hear the first bar as a 7/8 (or 3,5/4 as you will) from there on it is straight forward counting in quarter notes with every accent on a logical place. The third line of 31 eight notes is even more logical because it is basically 4 four bar phrases with the exception of the first measure which has one eight note less. To me that is the most simple way to notate this.

Btw I don't hear them as 16th notes but 8th notes. So double time.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I see what happened - I heard the same groupings/pattern but inverted. You’re saying ABABAB, I’m saying BABABA.

Had I written it down we’d have got the same or similar result.

 

[Trilobita]

In case anyone is interested in continuing this discussion, I also have a question about how to transcribe the three bars at 1:10-1:19.

They do add up to (the equivalent of) three perfect bars of 4/4, but the accents are clearly 4/4|7/8|9/8. If these time signatures are written in the score, all notes naturally fall in a very neat order, with the 4/4 bar taken by four evenly spaced quarter notes, the 7/8 bar entirely taken up by a single long note (a double-dotted half note) and the 9/8 bar taken up by three notes of the same length (three dotted quarter notes):

Would you rather transcribe it as three straight bars of 4/4 or according to the above possibility (and why)?

 

[Trilobita]

A couple of days have elapsed and am now considering notating the part above as 4/4 with accent markings. The reason is that whereas the 4/4|7/8|9/8 approach above seems to work very well for what it notates, the return to 4/4 once that third 9/8 bar part is over (which does not appear in the above transcription fragment) feels quite strange.

I would be very interested in reading a couple of opinions on transcribing this specific segment and the reasoning behind whatever transcription is adopted.

Thanks!

 

[Groove Doctor]

Different song, but a good illustration.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-pagepreviews/HL_DDS_0000000000088086.png
I count it 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/4 3/4 3/4 3/4 5/4.

The guitarist, keys players & I all count it differently. Singer always comes in at the wrong time. The Drummer hates it. But I’d still transcribe it this way for simplicity’s sake. Let each person subdivide/count it as they prefer.

 

[Trilobita]

This is definitely in the same spirit with regard to how the music is felt vs. how it might be written.

I gave it a listen with counting in mind and if I were to play this I would probably conceptualize it as 4/4|4/4|7/8|5/8|6/4|4/4|4/4, counting the 7/8 and the 5/8 bars as 4/4 and 3/4 with missed final beats (going from FOUR and THREE straight to ONE, with no intervening "and"). That is how I hear it, but it is interesting to see that this score is notated in straight 4/4. Thank you for coming up with this example!

 

[Les Fret]

In case anyone is interested in continuing this discussion, I also have a question about how to transcribe the three bars at 1:10-1:19.

They do add up to (the equivalent of) three perfect bars of 4/4, but the accents are clearly 4/4|7/8|9/8. If these time signatures are written in the score, all notes naturally fall in a very neat order, with the 4/4 bar taken by four evenly spaced quarter notes, the 7/8 bar entirely taken up by a single long note (a double-dotted half note) and the 9/8 bar taken up by three notes of the same length (three dotted quarter notes):

View attachment 4522036

Would you rather transcribe it as three straight bars of 4/4 or according to the above possibility (and why)?

In this case it makes more sense to notate everything in 4/4 and see the accents as syncopations. Same goes for The Bee Gees example.

Your first example is different because you can not count it in a straight way.

 

[dreamadream99]

There are many ways to notate a passage.
There is only one way that it sounds.

 

[Trilobita]

In this case it makes more sense to notate everything in 4/4 and see the accents as syncopations. Same goes for The Bee Gees example.

Your first example is different because you can not count it in a straight way.

Makes sense -- thank you for pointing out this difference relative to first example. I am going to update my transcription to 4/4 with accent markings where possible.