Double Bass transcription techniques?

[AllieM]

I’ve wondered the same thing about some of PC’s lines as far as the upper register and intonation are concerned and I wonder how much of that might just be the nuances of gut strings? I could never get anything in thumb position to sound all that great on gut strings. It’s like the notes would be just a hair off from where they usually are on synthetic strings or Spiros. It’s a weird thing.

I do love how Chambers is more than willing to play low register solos. Not enough bass players solo in this manner today and it still sounds refreshing listening to PC do it on recordings some 60+ years later.

I'm a big fan of Oscar Pettiford, he also played guts but with great tone/clarity. I read that Chambers had low/medium action, maybe that combined with low tension guts had that odd timber in upper register, sounds like a rubber band! lol. But the intonation issues I noticed were in the lower register, 1/2 position. I'm wondering also if he used a different tuning or detuning cause it also seems he goes lower than the open E.

 

[lurk]

If you're transcribing a bass line, particularly on an older recording of a gut string bassist, and a few things are hard to hear, I don't see the point of obsessing over getting every note exactly right. If you get the line down except for a couple of little things and learn to play along with the recording and feel like you're in the band, lifted some things you like and tried them on other tunes and in other places, and figured out what you like about those things and twisted them around in your own way, you've gotten the point of transcription. PC is my favorite bassist and I'm not the only one. Try to get what makes him so great. Hint: it's not perfect intonation or the most beautiful sound.

 

[Paul New]

Early in the thread you asked if something is wrong with you. Yes. You are human.

Paul Chambers, however, was not, and many people including me will be offended by your suggestion that he was not perfect.

 

[MuseChaser]

. ... I do have some classical training but this is my first assignment from a jazz teacher. I'm using a slow down extension on youtube to slow down to 75% playback, it does a pretty good job maintaining correct pitch but it's just hard for me to hear whats going on in several measures. My teacher didn't give me any hints on how to transcribe, i asked if i'm allowed to slow it down and he said yes but to beware pitch can become harder to get correct. Is there any sage advice? This has me wondering if there's something wrong with me that I'm having such trouble getting through it.

....
Another aspect consider: In order to understand and enjoy some stylistic aspects of music, it's necessary to have travelled along with the style as it developed. Without the necessary context, a certain motif or line may sound foreign and wrong. ....

I really have to bite my lip not to respond to these assumptions as I'd like to keep this in a positive direction,....

Allie, in Wasnex's defense, not that any is needed, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion, correctly or not, that you don't have a lot of experience with jazz bass, based upon the wording in your original post. .. ".. sone classical training.." and "..first assignment from a jazz teacher.." in particular. I drew the same conclusion, to be honest, and was about to post something similar to what Wasnex posted, addressing intonations and note choices that were much more driven by sometimes placing the desire for a strong melodic leading in the bass line over the desire to always play notes that fit the chord or even the key perfectly.

After reading your response, perhaps you were already aware of some of the somewhat dichotomous nature of jazz harmonic and melodic considerations, but the assumption that you were not is completely understandable. The only negativity I saw was your response to a poster who was just trying to be helpful.

In any case, I'm glad you've found some things to aid you here. Best to you.

 

[brianrost]

Couple things I'm noticing about the PC walking lines - there's several questionable notes for intonation (as well as possibly grazing adjacent string)

That’s pretty common on jazz recordings. Even the greats will hit a note just a bit off leaving the transcriber to guess whether he meant to play an E or an F.

When I encounter that I step back and look at the notes before and after and see what note choice makes the most sense in that context. I was transcribing one tune where the bassist kicked off the first bridge on the 9 rather than the root but the remaining bridges he started with the root. Was it a mistake or was it intentional? After writing out all the bridges and analyzing the first four bars of the bridges, I think it was a mistake but not bad enough to throw out the take

 

[Martin Spure]

I don’t know if this will work on older recordings, but provided the sound quality of the recording, this website below claims to be able to separate the instruments of the recording. Although I’m an outspoken nay-sayer when it comes to anything A.I. in creative fields, this particular use of A.I. is a useful help, rather than A.I. “creating” something for you at a button press. I digress, and sorry for the off-topic..

Being able to isolate the bass track would be very helpful for transcription, I think. I saw a review of it which was quite impressive, but I haven’t tried it myself. Might be worth a shot, or as another option to Transcribe or Amazing Slow Downer.

Vocal Remover & Instrumental AI Splitter | LALAL.AI

 

[Martin Spure]

I just tried this lalal.ai thing and fed it Freddie Freeloader from Kind of Blue. It actually does a good job of isolating the bass, except it doesn’t detect when PC goes into thumb position. Here’s 1 minute’s worth of isolated Paul Chambers bass from lalal.ai :

 

[Carl Hillman]

Allie, in Wasnex's defense, not that any is needed, it's pretty easy to draw the conclusion, correctly or not, that you don't have a lot of experience with jazz bass, based upon the wording in your original post. .. ".. sone classical training.." and "..first assignment from a jazz teacher.." in particular. I drew the same conclusion, to be honest, and was about to post something similar to what Wasnex posted, addressing intonations and note choices that were much more driven by sometimes placing the desire for a strong melodic leading in the bass line over the desire to always play notes that fit the chord or even the key perfectly.

After reading your response, perhaps you were already aware of some of the somewhat dichotomous nature of jazz harmonic and melodic considerations, but the assumption that you were not is completely understandable.

I also assumed the Allie was a jazz newbie from the wording of the original post.

Wasnex has always been nothing but helpful in his replies to posters. I'm confident his intention wasn't to "mansplain" jazz to her.

 

[marcox]

Early in the thread you asked if something is wrong with you. Yes. You are human.

Paul Chambers, however, was not, and many people including me will be offended by your suggestion that he was not perfect.

I hope you’re saying this with tongue in cheek. Even our heroes are/were gloriously human. They had off nights, bad takes, shaky measures, etc. — just far fewer than the rest of us.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Questionable intonation and note choices can be found over the course of many notable recordings by many notable players, and PC is one of them. The fact that you are hearing it is a sign of a good ear and engagement with the recording. I'm quite surprised anyone is challenging that, honestly.

 

[crd]

No one is challenging intonation. (Although nothing jumps out at me in this track.) When PC is a little out of tune, it is usually context dependent. I'm not sure where it gets you. Feel free to notate in your transcription "flat" or "sharp".

I mean, more power to you if you want to question PC's note choices on a blues but it kind of makes me think of this:


Some of these things are a question of culture. It's interesting to take note of what PC chooses to prioritize in his playing over what he doesn't.

 

[MuseChaser]

No one is challenging intonation. (Although nothing jumps out at me in this track.) When PC is a little out of tune, it is usually context dependent. I'm not sure where it gets you. Feel free to notate in your transcription "flat" or "sharp".

I mean, more power to you if you want to question PC's note choices on a blues but it kind of makes me think of this:


Some of these things are a question of culture. It's interesting to take note of what PC chooses to prioritize in his playing over what he doesn't.

I liked that.... except the "more power to you..." part ..

I don't question the choices made by my musical heroes.... I question my ability to fully comprehend their genius, or revel in the occasional glimpse into their human fragility.

 

[crd]

I liked that.... except the "more power to you..." part ..

I don't question the choices made by my musical heroes.... I question my ability to fully comprehend their genius, or revel in the occasional glimpse into their human fragility.

Why is a great question to ask when transcribing.

 

[MuseChaser]

Why is a great question to ask when transcribing.

I generally ask myself "how?" I seriously doubt there was a lot of conscious thought behind certain note choices in a LOT of jazz playing, so "why?" really doesn't matter. It's the "how" does it work that intrigues me, when usual jazz theory fails to support certain choices.

Yeah, I know.... semantics. As a great musician once said, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."

 

[Keith Rawlings]

I'm a big fan of Oscar Pettiford, he also played guts but with great tone/clarity. I read that Chambers had low/medium action, maybe that combined with low tension guts had that odd timber in upper register, sounds like a rubber band! lol. But the intonation issues I noticed were in the lower register, 1/2 position. I'm wondering also if he used a different tuning or detuning cause it also seems he goes lower than the open E.

I wonder…

 

[Paul New]

I hope you’re saying this with tongue in cheek. Even our heroes are/were gloriously human. They had off nights, bad takes, shaky measures, etc. — just far fewer than the rest of us.

No, he was really not human. I’m sworn to secrecy regarding his origin, but it’s very far from here.

 

[Bruce Calin]

On the tune "Stolen Moments" from the Blues and the Abstract Truth album you can hear PC play some A naturals on an F minor chord. There are any number of reasons for this but they are the notes he played and they are on the take released for the album. I don't believe that making a meaningful right-or-wrong judgement on that basis is really possible. I did this transcription with the old needle drop method years ago but am quite sure it's reasonably accurate as far as the notes go.

 

[notabene]

I made a good part of my living in the '60s (pre electric tuners) transcribing rock band recordings for copyright purposes. my advice is... get paid well, as it was a hard, often nasty job. I did learn that the right answer in the written version is the one that sounds most like the audio musically, not the microscopic "truth".
Since I was transcribing accidentally microtonal music, with the recording often valuing "feel" over rhythmic accuracy, the notated versions that sounded most like the musical ideas attempted, were the best transcriptions, not the ultra detailed "true" renditions. Nowdays, I'd sooner drink muddy water than transcribe anything!

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I'm having a bear of a time getting through my first transcription, Whims of Chambers, mostly in the walking choruses. I do have some classical training but this is my first assignment from a jazz teacher. I'm using a slow down extension on youtube to slow down to 75% playback, it does a pretty good job maintaining correct pitch but it's just hard for me to hear whats going on in several measures. My teacher didn't give me any hints on how to transcribe, i asked if i'm allowed to slow it down and he said yes but to beware pitch can become harder to get correct. Is there any sage advice? This has me wondering if there's something wrong with me that I'm having such trouble getting through it.

Transcribing is currently my least favorite activity.

 

[AllieM]

just a little snippet of the solo transcription, for some reason it's not letting me embed the link:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BLROjpnA6Vg