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Transient noise and what it means to woofer excursion

Aug 29, 2012
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2,393
Germany
The playing of a bass guitar in practice is accompanied by playing style things like death notes and damping the string(s) and touch or hiding the string(s) with fingers or hand.

These things don't let vibrate or oscillate the string, it's rather a short spike that is generated every time when playing the bass guitar in practice.

In signal theory an ideal spike (Dirac Impulse) is characterized by a spectrum that starts at DC and spreads inifinetly by steady level by missing discrete Harmonics like it is known for periodic signals.

As in real world a Dirac Impulse is impossible to generate there is often considered the Gaussian function that generates a spectrum that looks equal like the function itself.

So what happens if a death note is played on the bass guitar or the strings are damped or touched with fingers/hand.

The generated spectrum for sure does not equal the Dirac impulse and, very likely isn't quite the same like the Gaussian function but, it is soemthing in between the both and that's dramatical for a woofer at some point.

Allthogh it is noise it isn't actually perceived as noise cause this noise is very short in time. It contains mids and treble band frequency content so this noise is probably rather perceived as something that can be very pleasant and percussive and can well "improve" a rather rhythmic playing style.

The messy thing with this "transient noise" is that it can easily underrun a cabinets tuning and force the woofer to excessice random excursions beyond the linear limits.

That's then more dramatical cause those random woofer excursions can't be noticed as a "fart out" with ears. Of course as long as the excursion don't hits mechanical limit which would mean an instant damage of the VC but, never the less, random excursions beyond liniear limits over time are likely a very good bet to damage and in consequence wreck a woofer over time.

Some tools like compressor/limiter or overdrive are good enough to just intensify the effect of random excessive cone excursion caused by transient noise.
 
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Well - those running such either use cabs that are compatible (sealed), use a HPF, or we point & laugh as they destroy their cabs LOL.
Nowadays lots of pedal effect-boards are way more common than in the old days like in the 70s and also instrument tuning and music genres have changed a lot which makes that transient noise obvious more "efficient".

Some folks suggest to have a weaker cabinet on top just to better hear when it starts to fart out respectiely "cries for help".
Transient noise does not cause any audible "fart out" nor does the speaker "cries for help" but it may cause obvious excessive cone excursion that are well visible.

I'm not really sure if really everybody protects his cabinets with a steep HPF? Neither do I we know if everybody does understand the unpredictable nasty effect to woofers caused by transient noise.
 
Zombie thread for sure but, inspired by a different thread where the topic "noise" is discussed at some content I think its a good idea to add a couple of plots to this thread which may help to comprehent the "transient noise" issue.

I used LT spice to generate a couple of different damped signals in the time domain and generated FFT plots to show the outcome in the frequency domain.

The signal used is (basically) an arrangement of four Harmonics, All frequencies of the higher order harmonics do equal multiple integers of the 1st harmonic.
1st harmonic 50Hz - 0.5Vpeak
2nd harmonic 100Hz -1Vpeak
3rd harminic 150Hz 0.7Vpeak
4th harmonic 200Hz - 0.5Vpeak

1st Sample shows an "quasi" infinite signal with a steady state total level.
upload_2019-5-5_23-36-34.png

upload_2019-5-5_23-38-28.png


FFT predicts very precise (very text book like) the harmonics of the total signal (note, the voltage numbers on the Y-scale do read in rms notation)




Real signals in real world practice are almost always neither infinite nor of steady state RMS level over time. (btw. even 6-strings do rarely push steady state rms levels).
The 2nd sample shows what happens if the there a smooth damping applied to the signal
upload_2019-5-6_0-6-45.png

upload_2019-5-6_0-8-24.png

The spectrum plot looks similar like the one in sample nr #1 but as the envelope shape in the time domain shows an aperiodic charcaterist there is some "noise" involved which can be noticed below the fundamental and also does affect the harmonics on its own, there is some smearing noticeable between the harmonics itself.


Musicians do rarely play only "smooth" tunes on their instrument. In real practice musicians like it do add sharp stops and also add "percussive" notes to color the total outcome of playing. The playing of "percussive" and "damped" notes is very natural "fashion" especially with modern music styles.

Sample 3
upload_2019-5-6_0-19-57.png

upload_2019-5-6_0-21-50.png


It can be clearly seen that the amount of "transient noise" will be increased for "percusse" playing of the instrument
The 1st harmonic is very affected (masked) by "noise" and also the "total" spectrum looks kinda "smeared".
That's in total not an issue with FFT (by no means) its nothing but an general issue of "percussive" playing any stringed instrument.
It can be easily noticed that the "presence" of the fundamental (50Hz) might cause "mudd". And there is also (already) some power density present way below 50Hz which in total might harm a ported cabinet.


Sample 4 very strong damped signal
Sometimes musicicians do play any kind of "sharp" percussive stuff in the meaning to "color" their personal playing style. The outcome may (in particular) look like the following
upload_2019-5-6_0-56-59.png

upload_2019-5-6_0-59-24.png


The outcome of the spectrum is very impressing. Rather than any harmonics there is nothing but "noise" any more present. The noise peaks power density below 50Hz (actually very below the fundamental) and gains 280mV at 40Hz.
Not shown in the plot but we would see about 300..400mV even at 20Hz

its really no wonder that these "noise" artefacts can really (with ease) harm a ported cab if the cab was not protected by a proper adjusted/designed HPF.


The plots do also show that "classical" consideration with harmonics based on an infinite and steady state signal (time domain) is a very poor tool to evaluate mechanical strain of a cabinet

Furthermore the plots do demstrate well that there is something "special" involved if it comes to question "how" to evaluate total "sounds" in general.


edit, some tech supplement.
FFT "averages" the noise versus the monitored time window.
Actually the "predicted" lowish noise for samples #2 and #3 should be multplied by factor 2..3 to get a more realistc impression how much of the noise stuff will be generated in "real-time" condition.
To make more precise "measurements" respectively predictions there was need to add a HPF and fast acting peak level detector
 
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I've never heard of anyone using an HPF live - really? I've blown a few speakers in the past, mainly when I was using 15" speakers but haven't done for years. However, if working an HPF into my rig offered protection to my cab, count me in.
 
It sounds like I need to add a HPF to my setup. The Broughton also has a LPF which I assume will be beneficial at the other end of the spectrum. In my studio work I HPF and LPF bass as matter of course so I don't know why I have never thought of applying it to my live work! It would make sense to me to set the HPF at around 30Hz and set the LPF as low as possible without compromising tone. Thoughts?
 
Zombie thread for sure but, inspired by a different thread where the topic "noise" is discussed at some content I think its a good idea to add a couple of plots to this thread which may help to comprehent the "transient noise" issue.

I used LT spice to generate a couple of different damped signals in the time domain and generated FFT plots to show the outcome in the frequency domain.

The signal used is (basically) an arrangement of four Harmonics, All frequencies of the higher order harmonics do equal multiple integers of the 1st harmonic.
1st harmonic 50Hz - 0.5Vpeak
2nd harmonic 100Hz -1Vpeak
3rd harminic 150Hz 0.7Vpeak
4th harmonic 200Hz - 0.5Vpeak

1st Sample shows an "quasi" infinite signal with a steady state total level.
View attachment 3407534
View attachment 3407535

FFT predicts very precise (very text book like) the harmonics of the total signal (note, the voltage numbers on the Y-scale do read in rms notation)




Real signals in real world practice are almost always neither infinite nor of steady state RMS level over time. (btw. even 6-strings do rarely push steady state rms levels).
The 2nd sample shows what happens if the there a smooth damping applied to the signal
View attachment 3407568
View attachment 3407570
The spectrum plot looks similar like the one in sample nr #1 but as the envelope shape in the time domain shows an aperiodic charcaterist there is some "noise" involved which can be noticed below the fundamental and also does affect the harmonics on its own, there is some smearing noticeable between the harmonics itself.


Musicians do rarely play only "smooth" tunes on their instrument. In real practice musicians like it do add sharp stops and also add "percussive" notes to color the total outcome of playing. The playing of "percussive" and "damped" notes is very natural "fashion" especially with modern music styles.

Sample 3
View attachment 3407577
View attachment 3407579

It can be clearly seen that the amount of "transient noise" will be increased for "percusse" playing of the instrument
The 1st harmonic is very affected (masked) by "noise" and also the "total" spectrum looks kinda "smeared".
That's in total not an issue with FFT (by no means) its nothing but an general issue of "percussive" playing any stringed instrument.
It can be easily noticed that the "presence" of the fundamental (50Hz) might cause "mudd". And there is also (already) some power density present way below 50Hz which in total might harm a ported cabinet.


Sample 4 very strong damped signal
Sometimes musicicians do play any kind of "sharp" percussive stuff in the meaning to "color" their personal playing style. The outcome may (in particular) look like the following
View attachment 3407607
View attachment 3407609

The outcome of the spectrum is very impressing. Rather than any harmonics there is nothing but "noise" any more present. The noise peaks power density below 50Hz (actually very below the fundamental) and gains 280mV at 40Hz.
Not shown in the plot but we would see about 300..400mV even at 20Hz

its really no wonder that these "noise" artefacts can really (with ease) harm a ported cab if the cab was not protected by a proper adjusted/designed HPF.


The plots do also show that "classical" consideration with harmonics based on an infinite and steady state signal (time domain) is a very poor tool to evaluate mechanical strain of a cabinet

Furthermore the plots do demstrate well that there is something "special" involved if it comes to question "how" to evaluate total "sounds" in general.


edit, some tech supplement.
FFT "averages" the noise versus the monitored time window.
Actually the "predicted" lowish noise for samples #2 and #3 should be multplied by factor 2..3 to get a more realistc impression how much of the noise stuff will be generated in "real-time" condition.
To make more precise "measurements" respectively predictions there was need to add a HPF and fast acting peak level detector

Cool. Seems your philosophy on whether an HPF helps protect from these transients has shifted from 2016.
 
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I've never heard of anyone using an HPF live - really? I've blown a few speakers in the past, mainly when I was using 15" speakers but haven't done for years. However, if working an HPF into my rig offered protection to my cab, count me in.


Most bass amps have an HPF built into their circuitry, so you are probably using one, even though you don't know about it. I suspect variable HPFs (like on the WD-800) will become more common. Mesa Boogie Subway WD-800 WalkAbout Bass Amplifier | MESA/Boogie®
 
It sounds like I need to add a HPF to my setup. The Broughton also has a LPF which I assume will be beneficial at the other end of the spectrum. In my studio work I HPF and LPF bass as matter of course so I don't know why I have never thought of applying it to my live work! It would make sense to me to set the HPF at around 30Hz and set the LPF as low as possible without compromising tone. Thoughts?


Depends on where you speaker is ported and the sound you want. Excursion increases very quickly below the port frequency and I believe the output drops at rate of about 24dB per octave, so there is not much benefit to running the cab very far below the port frequency.

Applying an HPF prevents the driver from flopping around like crazy, so the driver can work more effectively in its pass band. Also you get more headroom because you're not wasting power trying to reproduce frequencies that are below the cab's pass band.

Even if the cab is ported extremely low, you might like the sound better with an HPF engaged. A lot of the energy produced in the sub bass range is not harmonically related to the notes you are playing, so faithfully reproducing sounds in this range may not be very musical.

Chances are you won't hear the sub lows once the other instruments begin to play, but reproducing these frequencies changes the quality of the bass. It might be nice if there is a point source for your sound and good acoustics, but this is rarely the case in live sound. Consider how your rig interacts with the environment and the PA system. I usually run a small rig that doesn't put out very much low end, so the PA has a better chance of being the dominant sound source.
 
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Cool. Seems your philosophy on whether an HPF helps protect from these transients has shifted from 2016.
I'd want to edit the thread title and add some more comprehensible words such as "HPF content".
Unfortunatelly the thread is too old and there is no edit buttom availabe anymore for post #1 just to edit the thread title.

May be the thread might have get more hits if the thread title was more "precise" on the subject.
 
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I'd want to edit the thread title and add some more comprehensible words such as "HPF content".
Unfortunatelly the thread is too old and there is no edit buttom availabe anymore for post #1 just to edit the thread title.

May be the thread might have get more hits if the thread title was more "precise" on the subject.

Add some HPF content and maybe @Stumbo will sent some hits your way.
 
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I'd want to edit the thread title and add some more comprehensible words such as "HPF content".
Unfortunatelly the thread is too old and there is no edit buttom availabe anymore for post #1 just to edit the thread title.

May be the thread might have get more hits if the thread title was more "precise" on the subject.
Mods can assist with editing old posts. Good thread.:thumbsup:
 
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I'm not clear what your point is, but if you want to reduce/eradicate speaker-excursion, get a High-Pass Filter such as a Thumpinator and just TRY to get your cones to move! I use a multi-band compressor, a limiter, an HPF and, of course, my skilful mastery of the instrument (!) to keep the bass from shredding cones and ears.
 
I'm not clear what your point is, but if you want to reduce/eradicate speaker-excursion, get a High-Pass Filter such as a Thumpinator and just TRY to get your cones to move! I use a multi-band compressor, a limiter, an HPF and, of course, my skilful mastery of the instrument (!) to keep the bass from shredding cones and ears.
Right, a HPF is the way to go to protect drivers from harmfull excursions.

While a limiter and/or compressor does NOT work the same way. In first place limiters (and compressors) help to reduce distortion but these tools can't prevent from the formation of harmfull subharmonic transient noise.
To the contrary limiters and compressors are more suitable just to even worsen the harmfull scenario coming (naturally) along with subharmonic content.
See the plot in post #7
Rather then damping the lowish "noise" in real practice a compressor or limiter does likely enhance the lowish "transient" frequency content.