Transparent Bass Amps ?

[Mike Dimin]

For me the concept of transparent is like a painter with a blank canvas. I can shape the tone the way I want to. A colored amp/cabinet is like a sanvas already painted blue. If you want red you first have to either remove the blue or cover over it. A simple yet effective analogy

Mike

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by billys73
Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound.
Also, I don't understand your response to my question about your cabinets being "flat". How can you "call it flat" This stuff can be easily measured, which I'm sure you have. So, are there peaks and valleys in the frequency response?

Maybe "your" bass doesn't have tons of booty, I have several that do, unplugged.

Are you saying you haven't heard a bass that sounds good unplugged? Are you confusing booty with volume?



IME the best sounding basses I've come across sound great unplugged. Yes, I can hear them and sometimes feel them too. From there all I want is for the electronics and amp to bring that up to performance volume levels.

 

[Whappo Grande]

Very good posts my friends…

“e.g. my friend's Fodera fretless sounds absolutely gorgeous straight into the board, and he tries to achieve that sound for his live…” jokerjkny

“Maybe "your" bass doesn't have tons of booty, I have several that do, unplugged.” Brad

“Although I would say that no cabinet is PERFECTLY FLAT, there are some that get pretty damn close. These cabinets are about as transparent as it gets. EA, Accugroove and others strive for this….Some manufacturers incorporate peaks and valleys into their cabinets purposely...” Mike

Mark

AccuGroove.com

 

[Whappo Grande]

Hey, Mark! Aren't you debuting your new SS Grande Rounds at NAMM? Is there any truth to the "string within a string" technology, or is that just marketing hype?”

tombowlus

Actually, I’ve been testing a prototype GOLD string that’s pretty killer. No, it’s not an AccuGroove string & I can’t say who makes it yet, but it’s very nice.

I’m off for a few days, so merry Christmas to one & all!

Mark
AccuGroove.com

 

[jokerjkny]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
(...)
I use either AMP BH-420 or Hughes & Kettner BassBase 600 amps through either Nahas 1-15 and 1-12 cabs or a pair of EA VL-110 cabs.

On the Avalon U5 tip, I recently tried one. I tried it because while my rig sounded fine without it who knows, maybe it could be even more transparent.

It wasn't. Whether putting it in the effects loop, front end or direct to the amp section it made no difference, it didn't improve (to my ears) what I already had. That doesn't mean it couldn't be an improvement in another rig.

So... IMO transparent means just making whatever bass I'm playing louder while letting all of it's tonal signature through. Most amps don't do that.

brad,

i think you missed the point of using the U5. some guys like myself use it as the primary preamp itself, not just as some add on. when used as the preamp it translates your bass to your speakers as "transparently" (oi... that word is becoming a little "loaded" thx to this thread) as possible.

Originally posted by Oysterman
So it's OK with you to let the onboard preamp give a nice colour to your tone, but you wouldn't allow your rig to do the same?

well,

to my ears, some basses and their combination of pickups and their onboard pre's make up a HUGE part of their signature tone, whether it be Fodera and their custom designed Seymour Duncan / Aero pickups in conjunction with their "Mike Pope" designed preamp, or Sadowsky, and Roger's custom Dimarzio pickups and his signature onboard pre. sure, you can get them without those options, but IMHO, they make up a huge part of the sound they're known for.

moreover, many luthiers have chosen to use particular pickups and engineer their onboard preamps to sound great together with the chosen woods, neck joints, etc. to create their signature bass tones in their instruments. again, they're designing "electric basses", so pickups and onboard pre's (if any) are just as an important key as the woods themselves to achieving the desired tonal result.

btw, to answer more directly your example, tho the bass boost on my Aguilar DB680 is centered at the same 40Hz as the boost on my Sadowsky, i MUCH rather use the Sadowsky's onboard. just seems to be better voiced for me.

and funny with all this "transparency" talk, but i've recently been toying with the idea of just merely using an Avalon U5, with my Epifani / Acme cabs. after my last gig, where i literally went DI for the whole show, made me fall in love all over again with the Sadowsky sound. sure, the Epi's arent as flat, but the cabs are beautifully voiced for me as well. its like my whole rig is pre-EQ'ed for me. but i'd LOVE to check out an El Whappo. from all the comments TomB, really has my interest piqued.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Originally posted by Oysterman
So it's OK with you to let the onboard preamp give a nice colour to your tone, but you wouldn't allow your rig to do the same?

With all due respect, I think your missing a big point. It is not that you do not allow your rig to alter the tone of your bass, it is about the starting point of the tone coloration process. A transparent amp will allow you to build from scratch. A colored rig will already have certain parameters set for you. if you like the "XYZ" sound then get their amp, if, however, you like to build your own sound from scratch, then the "transparent" rig is for you.

Personally, sometimes I play with my EA rig flat and sometimes I add stuff. It's all about the gig, the room, my mood, the effect that I am trying get, etc

Mike

 

[Mike Dimin]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
to me some basses and their combination of pickups and their onboard pre's make up a HUGE part of their signature tone, whether it be Fodera and their custom designed Seymour Duncan / Aero pickup in conjunction with their "Mike Pope" designed preamp,

I think that is one way that Fodera can use so many exotic woods and in combinations that don't work as well for luthiers who depend more on the sound of the wood.

Mike

 

[billys73]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Maybe "your" bass doesn't have tons of booty, I have several that do, unplugged.

Are you saying you haven't heard a bass that sounds good unplugged? Are you confusing booty with volume?




I'm saying that it's not a useable instrument until it's amplified. And I'm saying that the sonic character produced by the amp and speakers while making it the bass loud enough to be useable is as defines the character of the instrument as much as the wood, strings, etc....

And, I'm saying that all the amps that claim to be "flat"
( now claiming "close to flat" ) should publish there distortion specs and show their frequency curves, and other relevent info. I am curious to know how much of this is hype. That would kind of answer that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
brad,

i think you missed the point of using the U5. some guys like myself use it as the primary preamp itself, not just as some add on. when used as the preamp it translates your bass to your speakers as "transparently" (oi... that word is becoming a little "loaded" thx to this thread) as possible.

Actually I think you missed something in my post

"Whether putting it in the effects loop, front end or direct to the amp section..."

"Direct to the amp". That's about as primary as it gets in a bass rig. Going direct on the BH-420 completely bypasses the preamp section.

I tried it as a primary preamp, with my AMP BH-420 and a standalone stereo power amp. Trust me, I found a great deal on mine ($300, mint condition with rack kit) and wanted to like it.

My point is, if you already have a transparent preamp, it's not an improvement. I heard no improvement over what I already have. In my case it would've been one more thing to hook up that essentially did nothing for me. It happens. In addition to being no more transparent than the BH-420's pre (if you haven't heard one yet try to get your hands on one) it was far less versatile too. While I always run my pre flat, it has 4 band semi-parametric EQ, shelving tone controls, tone balance and a limiter, which I also don't use. I've used it as preamp with more powerful pro sound amps and it's excellent, very open, smooth and also very quiet. OTOH the U5 had the tone wheel.

Not exactly a reason to hang onto it. Don't get me wrong, I loved what I heard... I just already had it.

The U5 is great for someone NOT in my situation

 

[Biker4Him]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
The U5 is great for someone NOT in my situation

So.... wanna get your money out of it???

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by Biker4Him
So.... wanna get your money out of it???

I already did. Sold it to a friend. He loves it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by billys73
Originally posted by Brad Johnson I'm saying that it's not a useable instrument until it's amplified. And I'm saying that the sonic character produced by the amp and speakers while making it the bass loud enough to be useable is as defines the character of the instrument as much as the wood, strings, etc....

Believe what you want to believe, Billy. It sounds like we've had drastically different experiences. It sounds like you can't hear tonal characteristics unless they're amplified while I can.

As far as not useable... I practice a lot unplugged. Seems useable to me.

When I first check an instrument out I do it unplugged. IF it has a pleasing acoustic sound (despite what you seem to think it's first and foremost an acoustic instrument) the next step is to see if that sound comes through amplified. And yes, even unplugged I can hear the effects of wood and strings on the sound.

There are some basses whose amplified sound is defined by the electronics, which you obviously can't hear unplugged. The Peavey Cirrus is a good example of that, so are Alembics and Ken Smiths generally speaking (and no, that is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a thing).

And, I'm saying that all the amps that claim to be "flat"
( now claiming "close to flat" ) should publish there distortion specs and show their frequency curves, and other relevent info. I am curious to know how much of this is hype. That would kind of answer that.

You seem to want this to be hype so for you let's agree that it is. I don't have a problem with that. It's the same kind of hype that says woods can make a difference, your playing can effect tone, etc. Just good old fashioned hype

OTOH if you try to understand what some of us are talking about you may eventually get the point. Then again, maybe not.

There are rigs that heavily color the sound and mask the sound of your instrument. An Eden WT-800 driving a D410XLT is a good example of that. It gives you the Eden sound which is a definite coloration of whatever you plug in. Again, that is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a thing. It could be a very desirable thing if that's the sound you seek.

But suppose you don't want every bass you play to sound like an Eden rig. Getting an Eden rig will not help in getting you there. Here's a very simple test for "flatness", whatever that truly is. Plug you bass into your amp and turn the volume off. Listen to it, really listen and get the sound of it in your head. Granted, you never answered my question and maybe you can't hear your bass unplugged. This test won't work for you.

Now gradually turn the volume up and hear whether or not the tonal characteristics remain the same. If they do, that IMO is transparent. The non-transparent rigs tend to mask the tonal characteristics of whatever you plug in, which might be a good thing if that's what you want. It's not what I want... I want my Brubakers to sound like Brubakers and the same is true for everything else I own.

Flat and transparent are not synonymous.

While some people are bent on relying on charts and specs to determine what they hear, ultimately IMO it's up to you and your ears to decide whether you like the results or not... not your eyes. Human hearing is not truly "flat", we can hear some frequencies at some volumes better than others. Some want a live rig designed for the 'scope (I have no idea why), others like me want one made for what they actually want to hear. Different strokes.

 

[billys73]

I agree with a fair amount of what you are saying.
But, I think you hit on the defining difference between our experiences.

I believe that the Electric bass is PRIMARILY a electric musical instrument. That doesn't mean that I think it doesn't have acoustic properties! By the way, I can fully hear the acoustic properties of an electric instrument unplugged. They are obvious and important.
You (and others) believe it is primarily an acoustic instrument. I don't. That's cool, it's been an interesting discussion!

 

[elmohoof]

I was referring to how strings make a big difference in the sound that you get from your bass regardless of how great a bass or bass amp you have! If you have old strings on your bass, you'll get a different sound from brand new ones to flat wound to round wound etc. I would think that the choice or age of your strings would make a BIG difference on how you wanted your bass to sound. And I didn't stumble into the wrong thread either. Your strings could have alot to do with the transperency of your sound Right?

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by elmohoof
I was referring to how strings make a big difference in the sound that you get from your bass regardless of how great a bass or bass amp you have! If you have old strings on your bass, you'll get a different sound from brand new ones to flat wound to round wound etc. I would think that the choice or age of your strings would make a BIG difference on how you wanted your bass to sound. And I didn't stumble into the wrong thread either. Your strings could have alot to do with the transperency of your sound Right?

Yes, the type & condition of strings on your bass has a big effect on your sound. [My classical guitar has some nylon strings on it that are transparent.]

The subject title of the thread is Transparent Bass Amps.
I don't think the resultant sound of your bass (w/whatever stings) + amp + cabs can be called transparent.
You have a source of sound (in this case an electric bass guitar) and you have various components that amplify and outputs the sound that has been input. How well the input matches the output (except for volume level) is the measure of how transparent the reproduction chain is.

You're saying that the strings you use and their condition has an effect on the overall sound and I agree, but I'm pretty sure what you're saying does not relate to the subject of the thread.

You could have dead stings on a bass producing the input sound and the reproduction chain amplifying and outputing the resultant sound (probably still sounds like dead stings -- maybe worse).

 

[elmohoof]

I guess I was mistaken, I guess strings have NO impact on the transparacy of your amp SORRY

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by elmohoof
I guess I was mistaken, I guess strings have NO impact on the transparacy of your amp SORRY

It's cool.
Merry Christmas, anyway!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by billys73
I agree with a fair amount of what you are saying.
But, I think you hit on the defining difference between our experiences.

I believe that the Electric bass is PRIMARILY a electric musical instrument. That doesn't mean that I think it doesn't have acoustic properties! By the way, I can fully hear the acoustic properties of an electric instrument unplugged. They are obvious and important.
You (and others) believe it is primarily an acoustic instrument. I don't. That's cool, it's been an interesting discussion!

Ever play a synth unplugged?



Still thinks electric bass is not primarily an acoustic instrument?

Most builders I know, at least the really good ones, consider the acoustic properties of an electric bass to be very important. Get that part right first and getting a great sound out of the bass is much easier.

If, as you say, you can fully hear the acoustic properties of an electric instrument unplugged, it should follow that you can hear when an amp is either staying relatively true to what you heard or is deviating. It's really no more complicated than that*.

I agree, it has been an interesting discussion. No better way to understand where people are coming from than talking things out.



*Okay, it can be, with the aforementioned instruments whose electronics play a major role in their final sound. You don't really know what the intended sound is with these until you plug in.

 

[jokerjkny]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
Actually I think you missed something in my post

"Whether putting it in the effects loop, front end or direct to the amp section..."

"Direct to the amp". That's about as primary as it gets in a bass rig. Going direct on the BH-420 completely bypasses the preamp section.
(...)

oh ok...

i guess i read "direct to amp" as "front end", instead of "direct to power amp section". my bad.

hmm... but that's a shame the Avalon didnt work out for you. IMHO, its such a great sounding versatile piece of gear. whether bass, acoustic guitar, Hammond B-3, etc., the detail the U5 gives you is quite remarkable. for the money (well, my used money.. ) its such a killer piece of gear no studio should not be without.

but, kinda funny how you couldnt tell if it did anything. i guess it was just fulfilling its understood purpose and that of this thread!

maybe with a more "transparent" cab you'd hear that?

oh crap, here comes the "Acme vs. EA" thread!!

 

[billys73]

I apologize for sticking my comments in your quote.
Just trying to be clear. Happy Holidays to everyone!


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by billys73
I agree with a fair amount of what you are saying.
But, I think you hit on the defining difference between our experiences.

I believe that the Electric bass is PRIMARILY a electric musical instrument. That doesn't mean that I think it doesn't have acoustic properties! By the way, I can fully hear the acoustic properties of an electric instrument unplugged. They are obvious and important.
You (and others) believe it is primarily an acoustic instrument. I don't. That's cool, it's been an interesting discussion!


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever play a synth unplugged?

Billy: No. That would be useless. It has NO acoustic properties.

Still thinks electric bass is not primarily an acoustic instrument?

Billy: Yes. It is not PRIMARILY an acoustic instrument.
An Uprite bass is an acoustic instrument. A trumpet is an acoustic instrument. etc....If you put a pick-up on them, they are still acoustic instruments.

Most builders I know, at least the really good ones, consider the acoustic properties of an electric bass to be very important. Get that part right first and getting a great sound out of the bass is much easier.

Billy: Above, in my post, I said that the acoustic properties of the Electric bass are important.

If, as you say, you can fully hear the acoustic properties of an electric instrument unplugged, it should follow that you can hear when an amp is either staying relatively true to what you heard or is deviating. It's really no more complicated than that*.

Billy: It's a lot more complicated than that. You need to listen to sounds at the same volume to compare them.
Being able to hear one sound doesn't mean you've set up an accurate test for comparing two sounds. Especially at different volumes.

I agree, it has been an interesting discussion. No better way to understand where people are coming from than talking things out.

Billy: Cool.



*Okay, it can be, with the aforementioned instruments whose electronics play a major role in their final sound. You don't really know what the intended sound is with these until you plug in. [/B][/

Aaah....I almost missed the fine print! Yes, exactly! We're blood brothers now!