Transparent Bass Amps ?

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by billys73
Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound.
Also, I don't understand your response to my question about your cabinets being "flat". How can you "call it flat" This stuff can be easily measured, which I'm sure you have. So, are there peaks and valleys in the frequency response?

If you read the context of all Whappo's quotes, it's apparent he was talking about the sound of his bass run to the board (or through a "transparent" DI to board).

I would still like to hear WG's response to billys73's question on flat freq. response.

 

[basstrader]

OK, here's my $0.03CD (exchange rate ya know)

.

I try to describe the difference from flat like the acme verse a clearer flat yet musical like the Bergantino.

Sorry but this makes no sense. I would define flat as 20hz-20khz +/- 1 dB. This is the spectrum of human hearing, and 1 dB is effectively not noticeable. Two really flat things will sound identical.

I worked for Audio Research - a super high end audio company - and in that world flat is flat. Anything that violates the above requirement is "colored". Also in that world transparency has a lot to do with transient response - how a system reacts to drums, cymbals, and percussive stuff (yes and slapping), not just flatness.

John and Larry at EA know this, that's where they started. But even their site talks about how a certain woofer had the "house curve" - to me that indicates a certain voicing or coloration.

Oh and by the way, who really knows what flat sounds like? How do you know the Aguilar isn't flat and every thing else isn't? (It's the marketing guys).

Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound.

BOOM! SMASH! WHACK! Hope that didn't hurt too much. It's not that your bass doesn't have any booty, it's just that it is so quiet you can't hear it. This is called the Fletcher-Munson effect, and it means that at low volumes bass is harder to hear. Acoustically, a bass has little volume of it's own, but it has all the characteristics that give the bass it's sound, booty or not. The pickups capture the booty and the amp makes it loud enough to *experience*. The booty is there, you can jack it up with an amp but if it's not there all the jack in the world isn't going to help.

and one last thing:

Ahh man I thought this topic was gonna be about something completely different. I was expecting plexiglass cabinents or glass heads or something... that'd be cool too though

Link Removed

There's the answer to transparent sound!

Stay low, and Merry Christmas

BT

 

[Big String]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
i wouldnt call Bergantino cabs transparent at all. IMHO, they're one of the most colouring cabs i've ever heard. almost give a tube like tone to anything you run into it.

and i wouldnt mixdown an album using a pair of Bergie 1x12's.


WHAT ??? IMO Bergs are definatley not one of the most colouring cabs.... Somewhat, but not much. I rarely e.q. much, just plug and play. All the strings in all the positions sound even and sweet to me. I found the HT-322 and HT-212 to have the most coloring of all the Bergs I've owned. The NV610 is in a bag all by itself, very vintage, and the HT112 (my fav) has got it's own thing too, but very clear and natural/"musical" but not coloured like Aguilar or the similar but much lesser Eden sound. Now to me those cabs really break out the Crayolas. As far as string noises etc. I can hear those very good through my Bergs. I admit this does not say much for my playing and technique, but I didn't hear any more clear or transparent while using EA or Epi cabs...

Happy Holidays.

 

[AMJBASS]

Originally posted by basstrader
OK, here's my $0.03CD (exchange rate ya know)

.

Sorry but this makes no sense. I would define flat as 20hz-20khz +/- 1 dB. This is the spectrum of human hearing, and 1 dB is effectively not noticeable. Two really flat things will sound identical.

I worked for Audio Research - a super high end audio company - and in that world flat is flat. Anything that violates the above requirement is "colored". Also in that world transparency has a lot to do with transient response - how a system reacts to drums, cymbals, and percussive stuff (yes and slapping), not just flatness.

John and Larry at EA know this, that's where they started. But even their site talks about how a certain woofer had the "house curve" - to me that indicates a certain voicing or coloration.

Oh and by the way, who really knows what flat sounds like? How do you know the Aguilar isn't flat and every thing else isn't? (It's the marketing guys).




BOOM! SMASH! WHACK! Hope that didn't hurt too much. It's not that your bass doesn't have any booty, it's just that it is so quiet you can't hear it. This is called the Fletcher-Munson effect, and it means that at low volumes bass is harder to hear. Acoustically, a bass has little volume of it's own, but it has all the characteristics that give the bass it's sound, booty or not. The pickups capture the booty and the amp makes it loud enough to *experience*. The booty is there, you can jack it up with an amp but if it's not there all the jack in the world isn't going to help.

and one last thing:



Link Removed

There's the answer to transparent sound!

Stay low, and Merry Christmas

BT

Good post!

I use EA equipment. It is incredibly transparent, and gives me the most natural tone from my basses without any unwanted coloration.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Originally posted by basstrader

John and Larry at EA know this, that's where they started. But even their site talks about how a certain woofer had the "house curve" - to me that indicates a certain voicing or coloration.

BT,
I wrote the text for the web site (some I copied and pasted from the old EA site) but I don't recall seeing the term "house curve". If you know where it is, point it out to me.

Even though a speaker might have a built in curve or coloration, The tuning of the box can remedy much of that.

BTW, Your absolutely right wher you say that

John and Larry at EA know this, that's where they started

Mike

 

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Mike Dimin
...I don't recall seeing the term "house curve". If you know where it is, point it out to me.

It was in a thread started by bgavin discussing 'your ideal bass cab'. John Dong stepped in to clarify the specs of the CxL112 and that's when he mentioned the 'house curve'.

Of the EA cabs I've only heard the VL208 and that's pretty flat sounding. My Acme Low-B2's have remarkably flat clear response and sound very much like studio midfield monitors - extremely revealing, very unforgiving and really alive. I used them as a hi-fi for a short while after my Rotel amp died and heard things I'd never noticed before (like subtle reverb on vocals having so much more depth and realism and being clearly audible even amongst all the other noise).

Alex

 

[jokerjkny]

Originally posted by billys73
Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound. (...)

uh...

exactly. i havent exactly been reading what the other have been posting, but we dont play "uprights" or "acoustic basses". we here mostly play "electric basses" that you have to plug in, and who's tone really comes alive thru its exclusive use of electronics.

thus, its a combination of the woods, pickups, onboard pre if any, and the wiring that makes up what i wanna hear transparently.

e.g. my friend's Fodera fretless sounds absolutely gorgeous straight into the board, and he tries to achieve that sound for his live playing thru his Acme cabs and an Avalon U5.

i guess in this thread alone, we see people's varying degrees of what they think is "transparent". does it start from the bass as a whole, or simply the bass woods and strings itself, etc.

 

[tombowlus]

In the realm of bass cabs, to me, EA and Accugroove really stand out as being "transparent" and "flat". In particular, the EA VL-208 and VL-110, and the "Whappo" line (Mini, Jr., and El) stand out in this regard. Please note, that I have not heard ACME or Bergantino cabs. I do own Epifani, Mesa Boogie, Eden, Ashdown, Raezer's Edge, and (gasp!) Peavey cabs, and I would not call any of them flat or transparent.

However, compared to my home audio speakers - Thiel CS3.6 - which have a very flat response of 29Hz-20kHz +/- 1.5 dB, they are not in the same league (which is, of course, to be expected). So there are indeed, varying degrees of "flat" or "transparent" (although I don't envision ever having enough money to improve upon my Thiels!). Now, I don't doubt that the EA and Accugroove cabs will blow away many "PA" cabs and even some home audio speakers. In fact, I'd probably prefer them to the PA or home audio speakers selling in their price ranges. I did use some of my EA cabs as a PA, and let me tell you, the results were impressive. I haven't tried them as home audio speakers yet, but that might be a fun experiment. It may be fun to put my Whappo, Jr. up against one of my Thiels, too.

I guess I am not sure what the point of my rambling is, but as for advice, on the cab side, I would say go for Accugroove or EA. On the amp side, you could try a rack rig as suggested above (I have an Eden Navigator/PLX 3002 rig that is pretty good in this regard) or in a head configuration, the iAMP 800 or WW heads are probably the way to go.

Hope this helps, Tom.

 

[Oysterman]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
thus, its a combination of the woods, pickups, onboard pre if any, and the wiring that makes up what i wanna hear transparently.

So it's OK with you to let the onboard preamp give a nice colour to your tone, but you wouldn't allow your rig to do the same?

 

[elmohoof]

I have not heard anything in this thread about strings! Ever play on old strings because you couldn't afford them? Then you break one and have to put an even older one on as a spare in the middle of a gig? Ever did that and found that that one string sounded better than the rest of the strings? How about when you change the whole set? What about flat wound vs round wound? Roto-sound vs Dean Markley Blue Steel? Carvin SS vs nickel? Ponder these things!

 

[Biker4Him]

Originally posted by tombowlus
Accugroove really stand out as being "transparent" and "flat".

I guess I am not sure what the point of my rambling is, but as for advice, on the cab side, I would say go for Accugroove. On the amp side, you could try a rack rig as suggested above (I have an Eden Navigator/PLX 3002 rig that is pretty good in this regard) or in a head configuration, the iAMP 800 or WW heads are probably the way to go.

Hope this helps, Tom.

Hey Tom, being a huge AG fan I sort of edited your comments... No offense to the EA guys. I will admit I've not played through your stuff.

My current rig is Navigator/PLX1602/El Whappo. With all the settings "flat' on the Navigator I do not find it at all transparent. I much prefer the tone of my bass directly inito the amp. I just don't get enough level. The same rig plugged into an PR410HLF sounded completely different.. and nothing like the true voicing of my bass (when listend to directly into headphones.) THAT is the sound I want. (I've got to find just the right preamp!!!!!!) I love my bass(s) sound, and want to hear them, and all the nuances I am able to conjure out of them with my little ole' fingers. The AG helped tremdously in this regard. I don't think the amp is "changing" that voicing enough for me to be able to really notice. But the preamp is killing my tone.

Which leads me to believe this discussion will never end. Tom thinks the Eden is transparent, I think it colours the tone a bit. We all seem to have different ideas of how all the pieces of the puzzle interact.

 

[Big String]

I also found Eden preamps or preamp sections very coloring. My Demeter VTBP201s is pretty darn transparent to me. My Walter Woods Ultra same thing.

 

[Biker4Him]

Originally posted by Big String
I also found Eden preamps or preamp sections very coloring. My Demeter VTBP201s is pretty darn transparent to me. My Walter Woods Ultra same thing.

Maybe that's why I can't find a used one for sale here (or anywhere).

I am very interested to hear about the Read Purity though. I think it may be just the ticket???

 

[tombowlus]

I have not heard anything in this thread about strings! Ever play on old strings because you couldn't afford them? Then you break one and have to put an even older one on as a spare in the middle of a gig? Ever did that and found that that one string sounded better than the rest of the strings? How about when you change the whole set? What about flat wound vs round wound? Roto-sound vs Dean Markley Blue Steel? Carvin SS vs nickel? Ponder these things!

Hey, Mark! Aren't you debuting your new SS Grande Rounds at NAMM? Is there any truth to the "string within a string" technology, or is that just marketing hype?



Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

I have an Eden Navigator/PLX 3002 rig that is pretty good in this regard

What the heck, I'll just quote myself... At any rate, I did say that it was "pretty good." I do admit that the Navigator adds some coloration, although I do not think that it adds as much as the Eden heads do. The QSC is quite uncolored. I also have a Raven Labs MDB-1 in my rack, which is before the Eden, and perhaps this helps to send the Navigator a better signal to work with. It doesn't sound very colored to me, and is certainly less colored than my Walkabout, though not as flat as my iAMP 800.

I also found Eden preamps or preamp sections very coloring. My Demeter VTBP201s is pretty darn transparent to me

But I guess opinions can vary, as when I auditioned preamps, I found the Eden to be less colored than the Demeter or Alembic pres that I looked at. The Jack Read pre should really kick.

Later, Tom.

 

[Biker4Him]

It sounds like many of us want the same thing. We want the "REAL" sound (or voice, or tone, or whatever term you want to use) of our bass to be what we end up hearing.

The problem is, we all have a different perception of "reality".

(I know I do... I'm a freakin dork! But in my reality, I'm cool as a glass of lemonade on a hot summer day!)

 

[tombowlus]

Hey Basstrader! What did you do for Audio Research? They are indeed a very high quality manufacturer. I do not presently own any of their gear, but I have lusted after many of their products! I'd like to have one of their tube pres for a dedicated two channel system one of these days.

Later, Tom.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by elmohoof
I have not heard anything in this thread about strings! Ever play on old strings because you couldn't afford them? Then you break one and have to put an even older one on as a spare in the middle of a gig? Ever did that and found that that one string sounded better than the rest of the strings? How about when you change the whole set? What about flat wound vs round wound? Roto-sound vs Dean Markley Blue Steel? Carvin SS vs nickel? Ponder these things!

I think you wandered into the wrong forum.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
thus, its a combination of the woods, pickups, onboard pre if any, and the wiring that makes up what i wanna hear transparently.

Originally posted by Oysterman
So it's OK with you to let the onboard preamp give a nice colour to your tone, but you wouldn't allow your rig to do the same?

Dude, it's all about tone and how you want to get there.

Most of us have different ways to reach our desired tone.

Peace.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Big String

Originally posted by jokerjkny
i wouldnt call Bergantino cabs transparent at all. IMHO, they're one of the most colouring cabs i've ever heard. almost give a tube like tone to anything you run into it.

and i wouldnt mixdown an album using a pair of Bergie 1x12's.

WHAT ??? IMO Bergs are definatley not one of the most colouring cabs.... Somewhat, but not much. I rarely e.q. much, just plug and play. All the strings in all the positions sound even and sweet to me. I found the HT-322 and HT-212 to have the most coloring of all the Bergs I've owned. The NV610 is in a bag all by itself, very vintage, and the HT112 (my fav) has got it's own thing too, but very clear and natural/"musical" but not coloured like Aguilar or the similar but much lesser Eden sound. Now to me those cabs really break out the Crayolas. As far as string noises etc. I can hear those very good through my Bergs. I admit this does not say much for my playing and technique, but I didn't hear any more clear or transparent while using EA or Epi cabs...

Happy Holidays.

Big String, I agree with Joker that the Bergs are colored (maybe not one of the most coloring). They do lend a good tubey sort of tone to the mix.
It is possible for some element of any musical system to not be transparent and still be very pleasantly musical and relatively articulate.

I'm sure we're are just coming from different points of reference on the subject.

I think you could throw a Berg cabinet into almost any system and not be able to call the output 'sterile' sounding. That's a good thing.
I don't think you could say the same of EA VL-210's (for instance).

On the other hand, a Epiphone Jack Casady bass played through a Ampeg SVP-Pro with an Aguilar DB728 into a Berg _____ (fill in the blank), might make a lot of 'Old School' bassists happy, but probably not some 'modern' bassists.

My tastes are plenty happy with the Dem 201S -> PLX -> HT322. There's a definite tubilicious smoothness there that I find very appealing. But it doesn't meet my definition of transparent.
Yet, I would say they are closer to transparent than a lot of other cabinets out there (maybe that's what you meant).

Big String, I really respect your opinion on most stuff, so don't take this the wrong way.
Hopefully, we can agree to disagree on what sounds transparent (I think a lot of us will).

Happy Holidays to all!