Transparent Bass Amps ?

[billys73]

Maybe transparency is only relevent in amplifiying something like a jazz guitar, or upright bass. At least it is possible to say that a jazz guitar has a sound chamber of it's own. That establishes the tone you have in the first place. Then.....you could decide if the amp replicated that sound. The electric bass, with choices of wood, pickups, construction, etc .......is still entirely interactive with the amp and speakers. It has a pre-disposition to a voice; but it doesn't make a significant sound. Go play it for someone without an amp.! They'll be real impressed.

Wouldn't we have to describe the most transparent amp as the one with the least distortion? And aren't we talking about the amp section only? I would think that making "tone" would be the important job of a preamp section.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by billys73
Maybe transparency is only relevent in amplifiying something like a jazz guitar, or upright bass. At least it is possible to say that a jazz guitar has a sound chamber of it's own. That establishes the tone you have in the first place. Then.....you could decide if the amp replicated that sound. The electric bass, with choices of wood, pickups, construction, etc .......is still entirely interactive with the amp and speakers. It has a pre-disposition to a voice; but it doesn't make a significant sound. Go play it for someone without an amp.! They'll be real impressed.

Wouldn't we have to describe the most transparent amp as the one with the least distortion? And aren't we talking about the amp section only? I would think that making "tone" would be the important job of a preamp section.

It's a simple matter of putting your ear to the wood of your bass, playing the bass acoustically (without amplification), and you will hear the acoustic tone of your bass (of course the pickups will probably add something to the tone and if your bass is active the pre-preamp might also). A stethiscope (sp?) is cool to use if you have access to one.

As far as the rest of your comments, I got the impression you didn't read all the foregoing comments (esp. mine -- long-winded that it is).

The overall tone of a bass system is obviously the sum total of the tone of your bass guitar + the tone of your head (or preamp + poweramp) + the tone of your speaker cab(s) (+ any effects or equalizers or whatever).

Some bassists are seeking a particular tone and attempt to purchase the various components that will combine together to give them as close as possible the tone they are after.

If your bass guitar has the tone you're after, you want the rest of your system to add as little as possible (besides volume) to the bass' tone.
A transparent amp in that case would at least reduce the overall tone change from what the bass guitar sounds like acoustically. Bass speakers are evolving and improving all the time. I doubt that many are truly 'transparent' at this point in time, but that seems to be the goal of a fair number of manufacturers today (and maybe even more tomorrow).

My ideal system would be one where the bass guitar(s) sounded great, the preamp (or preamp section of the head) could achieve a transparent tone, but also allowed for different types of EQ'ing and tonal flavorings based on the playing environment and type of song being played (I don't want my bass to sound the same on "Smoke on the Water" as "Peaceful Easy Feeling"), the power amp (or poweramp section of the head) to be as transparent as possible, and the speaker cab(s) to also be as transparent as possible.

YMMV though and that's why there are different approaches by different manufacturers.

 

[billys73]

Originally posted by lo-freq
It's a simple matter of putting your ear to the wood of your bass, playing the bass acoustically (without amplification), and you will hear the acoustic tone of your bass (of course the pickups will probably add something to the tone and if your bass is active the pre-preamp might also). A stethiscope (sp?) is cool to use if you have access to one.

As far as the rest of your comments, I got the impression you didn't read all the foregoing comments (esp. mine -- long-winded that it is).

[/QUOTE]

If you have to put your head on the instrument, it doesn't have voice. You may be able to hear something by putting your head on it; but you couldn't use it the sound in any musical context.
My point is that the instrument is completly interactive with it's electronics and amplifier. Since it is so interactive, how can we say that an amp should amplifiy a certain way? And wouldn't transparent be most useful for an acoustic instrument? At least there what the instrument should sound like can actually be established.

Also.....my earlier suggestion that we could at least define electronically what we are calling transparent.
My definition would be low distortion. Do others agree?
If your amp has low distortion, you could probably count on it reproducing your instrument with accuracy.

Then.....we could look at all the amps out there, compare THD, and actually know which ones were doing less coloring. And then we could leave behind some of the hype like " reproduces the sound in your fingers" .

Looking for friendly discourse here

 

[pkr2]

It seems logical that if the sound that you want is the sound that you hear while holding your ear to the bass that a piezo contact mike would be an ideal pup. they reproduce the body vibration faithfully but usually sound like crap.

IMHO the term transparency is purely subjective.

The most transparent amp would be the one that produced exactly the same output, except for amplitude, as the input. As far as I know, no commercial amp comes even remotely close.

If an amp was completely transparent a square wave at the input would be a square wave at the output with no shoulder slope and no ringing. Again, no commercial amp comes close.


Harrell S.

 

[Brian Barrett]

Originally posted by jokerjkny
i too love a great transparent sound.

but for me, an Avalon U5 direct box powered by a quality ss power amp like a ... Crest would be a great neutral sounding rig.

I have to agree with jokerjkny for the most part. Had to edit his post a hair, but for the most part other then brand names of amps and cabs, I believe that’s one of the best rack setups for a true instrument voiced rig.

As far as Cab's go the Bergantino would be the choice for a clear and clean cab that’s musical and with monstrous tone reproduction and the Epifani if your wanting a clean cab but with a little more bottom and mid then the Berg with eq set flat.

There's a difference from being clean and flat/musically verse just flat. You don't want to get lost with the drums and double stack guitars!!

Good luck and what type of bass do you play?


EDIT:
I should have read all the way through before posting. Great commits on all the gear. Millennia is something I would love to try out. I've heard their amazing, but the price is nice as well. The Avalon U5 for the price is the most affordable at $500 plus rack ears.

Great advise in this thread!!!!

 

[Big String]

Transparent.
I have the Demeter 201s and Plx2402.
I also have a Walter Woods Ultra.
Bergantino Cabs.
My basses sound superb through this equipment. I call this transparent for the most part. Be prepared to hear the bad stuff too. I feel I have improved my tecniques as a result of practicing and hearing better.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by billys73

...
Also.....my earlier suggestion that we could at least define electronically what we are calling transparent.
My definition would be low distortion. Do others agree?
If your amp has low distortion, you could probably count on it reproducing your instrument with accuracy.

Then.....we could look at all the amps out there, compare THD, and actually know which ones were doing less coloring.
...

Looking for friendly discourse here

We probably need the input of someone like (QSC) Bob Lee here to get into all the factors involved in what makes an amplifier sonicly neutral or transparent. It is more than just low distortion. A few other factors: (most crucially) flat frequency response (at least through the audible frequencies -- some say wider) and reasonably decent phase response & slew rate.

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Brian Barrett
...
As far as Cab's go the Bergantino would be the choice for a clear and clean cab that’s musical and with monstrous tone reproduction and the Epifani if your wanting a clean cab but with a little more bottom and mid then the Berg with eq set flat.

...

Originally posted by Big String
Transparent.
I have the Demeter 201s and Plx2402.
I also have a Walter Woods Ultra.
Bergantino Cabs.
My basses sound superb through this equipment. I call this transparent for the most part. Be prepared to hear the bad stuff too. I feel I have improved my tecniques as a result of practicing and hearing better.

Guys, I'm not trying to be argumentative when I say this. It's more likely just differences in labeling sonic properties. I just don't want someone to accept the above, without checking it out for themselves (we always say that anyway, don't we?).

I would not call Bergantino speaker systems transparent. Probably the closest Berg to transparent that I've heard is the HT310. I own the HT322 and I believe it definitely adds its own color to the system sound especially from the mid-bass down. The midrange and treble of Bergs are fairly clean and clear (especially the treble). I have not heard the HT210 or HT115 or any of the NV's, but I've heard the rest.

Anyway, I don't want to start an argument; I just wanted to offer a different point of view for those that haven't heard Berg's for themselves.

[I also should probably qualify that I have never heard a bass speaker system that I though sounded transparent. BUT...I haven't heard Accugrooves or Paul Jones' or EA's & several others.]

 

[billys73]

Originally posted by lo-freq
Guys, I'm not trying to be argumentative when I say this. It's more likely just differences in labeling sonic properties. I just don't want someone to accept the above, without checking it out for themselves (we always say that anyway, don't we?).

I would not call Bergantino speaker systems transparent. Probably the closest Berg to transparent that I've heard is the HT310. I own the HT322 and I believe it definitely adds its own color to the system sound especially from the mid-bass down. The midrange and treble of Bergs are fairly clean and clear (especially the treble). I have not heard the HT210 or HT115 or any of the NV's, but I've heard the rest.

Anyway, I don't want to start an argument; I just wanted to offer a different point of view for those that haven't heard Berg's for themselves.

[I also should probably qualify that I have never heard a bass speaker system that I though sounded transparent. BUT...I haven't heard Accugrooves or Paul Jones' or EA's & several others.]

Okay....so if the amp and cab is functionally equivelent to the acoustic chamber of an guitar, violin, etc.....
Then why would we want it to do anything but add character? Paginini's (sp) violin is known as the cannon. It has dark, woody tone. Others, sound, well, different. Has anyone ever heard of a Strad (not strat!)
that sounded transparent?
When guitar builders carve and brace the top of a guitar, they are always going for a sound, or tone, that they've heard before or imagined. Anyway, what do you think? If the amp and cab are the amplifiying chamber of the electric bass, why would we want them to be transparent? Wouldn't we want them to be rich, full, lively, musical, warm, etc....etc.....?

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Originally posted by billys73
Okay....so if the amp and cab is functionally equivelent to the acoustic chamber of an guitar, violin, etc.....
Then why would we want it to do anything but add character? Paginini's (sp) violin is known as the cannon. It has dark, woody tone. Others, sound, well, different. Has anyone ever heard of a Strad (not strat!)
that sounded transparent?
When guitar builders carve and brace the top of a guitar, they are always going for a sound, or tone, that they've heard before or imagined. Anyway, what do you think? If the amp and cab are the amplifiying chamber of the electric bass, why would we want them to be transparent? Wouldn't we want them to be rich, full, lively, musical, warm, etc....etc.....?

First off, when I speak of transparency it is really independent of the bass, or the bass' characteristics. I mean that the amplifier and and speakers amplify evenly all the frequencies that go into them. They have a flat frequency response. This isn't very realistic, but the closer the response of the system is to flat, the more transparent the system is. You would test this by creating a frequency response plot from a wave generator input. Plot the gain vs frequency and you can see how flat or not flat the output is.

You might want them to be transparent if you like and prefer the sound that comes out of your bass naturally. Rich, full, lively, warm, etc. are all characteristics that could already be a part of how your bass sounds. They also might not. I doubt that a very poorly constructed bass, with poor pickups and electronics is going to sound good through a very transparent system. I personally like the sound of my basses through transparent systems. It is not that I say only transparent systems are good, but rather that is what makes my basses sound the best to me. To me, running my basses through amplifiers which tend to colour the sound more does not sound good. The way I check that my bass sounds the same out of my amp as out of my bass is by running my headphones directly off of my basses output (this won't work with passive basses unfortunately).

What I generally run is my bass' preamp flat and the tone section on my preamp defeated. I find that in a band that this works for most situations and I can vary my technique to generally be able to adjust my sound enough for what changes I need. Occasionally I need a very different sound that I cannot get this way and fortunately I can just adjust my tone on the iAmp beforehand and then hit the tone/defeat button on the amp and switch over.

Geoff

 

[Brian Barrett]

I try to describe the difference from flat like the acme verse a clearer flat yet musical like the Bergantino. Musical meaning it has a voice for bass, not just a flat setting which many might and might not fine to work......


Hope that helps and I didn't mean to mislead....

 

[Whappo Grande]

For me transparent means hearing the same sound I get out of my bass in the studio, but at a live gig. Not wimpy, not sterile, but exactly what my bass sounds like. Heck, many of us spend 3 to 6 grand on a bass & then we don't get to enjoy it to the fullest.

So a transparent rig for me is one that will help facilitate the true sound of my bass & by the way, that sound is VERY musical with tons-o-booty. That’s what led me to design my cabs in the first place.

One mans "best" is another mans "OK." What works for some, may not work for others & there’s plenty of room for everyone. I do find it interesting when people get such dogmatic opinions about gear they have never even played through. Oh well.

Keep trying & keep searching. It's a matter of having the time & the pocket book to find the rig that will end your search for transparency, but it can happen, because it happened for me.

Mark
AccuGroove.com

 

[billys73]

Originally posted by Whappo Grande


So a transparent rig for me is one that will help facilitate the true sound of my bass & by the way, that sound is VERY musical with tons-o-booty. That’s what led me to design my cabs in the first place.



Mark
AccuGroove.com [/B]

I apologize for only quoteing part of your post. I hope you won't feel taken out of context. I like what you call "facilitateing the sound of your bass! " To me, that means that the amp and cab have to work with the bass is way that sounds musical and personal. In your case, with tons-o-booty.
That's what transparent means to you. I understand that. But is it logical? To most, transparent means low distortion and an even amplitiude reproduced across the audible (and more?) frequency range of the bass.
Personally, I think that's great for reproducing a CD; not a Bass. Do Accu-groove cabs have a flat frequency response? I'm not saying that they should. Curious.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Originally posted by Whappo Grande
For me transparent means hearing the same sound I get out of my bass in the studio, but at a live gig. Not wimpy, not sterile, but exactly what my bass sounds like. Heck, many of us spend 3 to 6 grand on a bass & then we don't get to enjoy it to the fullest.

Billys73,

This, BTW, is the sme philosophy over at EA. The birth of EA came about when Dan Lakin (Lakland) and Mike Tobias challenged Larry Ullman and John Dong (EA) to create a system whereby players could get their studio sound in a live setting. Both of these luthiers were getting complaints from their players that they could not reproduce their studio sound playing live.

Mark
Great minds think alike, eh? .See you at NAMM - I'll be there with EA. Will you have your own booth?

Mike

 

[jokerjkny]

i wouldnt call Bergantino cabs transparent at all. IMHO, they're one of the most colouring cabs i've ever heard. almost give a tube like tone to anything you run into it.

but nothing wrong with that at all. cause bergie cabs do add soooooooo much goodness to your tone. still, its far from what i call "straight into the board" transparent, and i wouldnt mixdown an album using a pair of Bergie 1x12's.

as for transparency, certain basses sound amazing when run straight into the board for recording, and live some guys want that for their stage tone. hopefully, i think we can agree, this is what we all mean when we say "transparency". i think we're getting a little carried away with the semantics.

 

[Whappo Grande]

Billys73,

When I said "tons-o-booty," I'm talking about how my bass sounds, not how a transparent rig sounds.

Plug in a thin sounding, poorly built bass & that what you would get out of a transparent rig. Of course, with a good rig, you would have the head room with your EQ to make the necessary adjustments.

So we are basically on the same wave length regarding low distortion, even amplitude reproduced across the audible frequency range of the bass, etc.

"Do AccuGroove cabs have a flat frequency response?"

It depends; I would most certainly call it flat. However, many players have the preconceived notion that flat means sterile. Sterile, it is not.

Mike,

You are correct, great minds do think alike! I’ll defiantly see you at NAMM & yes we’ll have our own booth.

Marky Claus
AccuGroove.com

 

[Ilovepink]

I am really happy with PA cabs. I have found that cabs like Mackie and JBL Professional not only sound clean and transparent they are rugged and a hell of a lot cheaper than a specialized "bass cab" anyway.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Here's an example of why I want what I'd call a transparent amp.

Remember the old Bass Rockman headphone amps? They made practically anything you plugged in sound the same. Basically reduced your bass to a trigger

That's the exact opposite of what I want in an amp.

I have basses with distinct characteristics. When I plug them in I don't want a genericized sound, I want them to sound like they sound. This really isn't about low distortion or even amplitude specifically because those aren't the only things that color sound. Speaker cabs can contribute to coloration too.

Coloration is not a bad thing, if that's what you want.

I only use basses that sound great through my rigs without amp tweaks. Just doing that has made gigging with multiple bass so much simpler. The exception would be when I use my Ampeg B-100R combo, which I have set up to my ear and can now plug anything in without tweaks.

I use either AMP BH-420 or Hughes & Kettner BassBase 600 amps through either Nahas 1-15 and 1-12 cabs or a pair of EA VL-110 cabs.

On the Avalon U5 tip, I recently tried one. I tried it because while my rig sounded fine without it who knows, maybe it could be even more transparent.

It wasn't. Whether putting it in the effects loop, front end or direct to the amp section it made no difference, it didn't improve (to my ears) what I already had. That doesn't mean it couldn't be an improvement in another rig.

So... IMO transparent means just making whatever bass I'm playing louder while letting all of it's tonal signature through. Most amps don't do that.

 

[billys73]

Originally posted by Whappo Grande
Billys73,

When I said "tons-o-booty," I'm talking about how my bass sounds, not how a transparent rig sounds.

Plug in a thin sounding, poorly built bass & that what you would get out of a transparent rig. Of course, with a good rig, you would have the head room with your EQ to make the necessary adjustments.

So we are basically on the same wave length regarding low distortion, even amplitude reproduced across the audible frequency range of the bass, etc.

"Do AccuGroove cabs have a flat frequency response?"

It depends; I would most certainly call it flat. However, many players have the preconceived notion that flat means sterile. Sterile, it is not.

Mike,

You are correct, great minds do think alike! I’ll defiantly see you at NAMM & yes we’ll have our own booth.

Marky Claus
AccuGroove.com

Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound.
Also, I don't understand your response to my question about your cabinets being "flat". How can you "call it flat" This stuff can be easily measured, which I'm sure you have. So, are there peaks and valleys in the frequency response?

 

[Mike Dimin]

Originally posted by billys73
Okay, at the risk of getting clobbered, I gotta say it again. Unplugged, your electric bass does not have "tons-of-booty". I don't care if you paid 12grand, it has very little of it's own sound.
Also, I don't understand your response to my question about your cabinets being "flat". How can you "call it flat" This stuff can be easily measured, which I'm sure you have. So, are there peaks and valleys in the frequency response?

Although I would say that no cabinet is PERFECTLY FLAT, there are some that get pretty damn close. These cabinets are about as transparent as it gets. EA, Accugroove and others strive for this. They do so as to let YOUR instrument, YOUR fingers, YOUR heart and soul come through. many players are just not ready to hear themselves, amplify their poor technique and their fret buzzez. Some manufacturers incorporate peaks and valleys into their cabinets purposely, for 1 of 2 reasons. In order to achieve their signature sound or to allow the novice player a "cushion" so to speak. This cushion allows the player to make the mistakes they need to improve without getting frustrated.


Mike