Trouble Getting Clean Tone - Help a Beginner

[beatnut]

Another suggestion after you've checked your guitar setup.

Turn the volume up where you want it, turn the bass all the way down, mid and treble flat, i.e. 12 o'clock, then slowly turn the bass back up until your teeth stop hurting. It might sound a little exposed and harsh by itself. At this point, if possible, bring in a drummer friend and lots of other musicians and see how it sounds when the two of you play together.

 

[MDBass]

I had a sneaking suspicion of this, but am really just screwing around. Trying to get a decent sound so bass players don't have to bring rigs to my house anymore.

Ignore that guy.

His answer to literally any amp related question is "sell the junk you own and buy a FENDER RUMBLE"

You mention wanting to cop a Motown vibe but are trying to get a very clean tone: those are diametrically opposite ideas.

All of Jamerson's classics lines had a LOT of tube color and even distortion on their transients.

Follow @JimmyM's advice: ignore the manual settings and just use your ears. The blend controls on the Tech21 units are crucial to finding the tones you want.

 

[Pirate Captain]

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Hi all,

I've been playing bass for a number of years as a hobby but I'm newer to amps/electronics. I'm a professional Drummer by trade (let the jokes fly, haha), so my knowledge of this stuff is minimal. Here's my issue, hopefully someone will be able to knock this out for me as I'm very confused:

I'm currently using a MIM Fender Jazz with passive electronics and Flatwounds. I usually run the neck pickup rather high, the bridge pickup about halfway, and the tone control somewhere between 25%-50%.
I picked up two amps to play around with, a GK MB115 combo, and a 70's Peavey Centurion head with an older 1x15 cabinet. When I bought them, the guy played a Fender Jazz through them and they sounded good, or not as if something was apparently wrong (speakers blown, etc). I also picked up a Tech 21 VT Bass DI pedal to mess around with and get different tones with as well.

Out of either amp, on most settings, I'm having a hard time getting a good clean tone. It seems as if any low notes I play on the fretboard will distort. Not the overall sound per se (it doesn't sound like there is a distortion pedal on), but I can hear the speaker getting a little crunchy. Once I raise the volume, it gets worse. I've tried to read up on "gain structuring" but I'm not sure that's my issue. I'm trying to get a halfway decent vintage type tone, I love playing old Motown and Funk/R&B type stuff. I tried running the VT Bass DI through the Peavey both through the power amp input, as well as through one of the instrument inputs with the EQ flattened out. The GK doesn't have an effects loop so it was going through the Passive Input with the EQ flattened,.

Is this just the nature of a 1x15 cab? Should I be running my instrument volume lower? Could there be something wrong with the VT Bass DI? Did I buy poopy amps that can't produce good tone? Is it just a curse because I'm a drummer?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

If you're a big fan of the Motown and Funk/R&B stuff start by changing the setting on your Jazz Bass first. Most of those recordings were run with both volumes (neck and bridge) run all the way up and the tone all the way up. That's what's commonly called "running it wide open". Then use your amp to fine tune the EQ. Carole Kaye played a LOT of those old school bass lines and she ALWAYS used a pick. You may very well need to use a pick if you are trying to get that exact sound.

As has been said here before, don't boost the bass EQ. They are typically shelving controls centered at 30Hz and most of those frequencies add rumble and mud with little or no definition; steal LOTS of power from your amp; and can badly stress your speakers, causing distortion and eventual destruction. That very well could be what's causing problems with your 15" speaker. That will often take a speaker to its maximum excursion, which is a recipe for speaker failure. If you think you need more thump in the chest and definition in your sound, boost your low-mids around 250Hz slightly. Then only change one EQ setting at a time as you experiment with the other sounds your amp has to offer.

Coincidentally, When running the volumes at matching levels, those two single-coil pickups become a humbucker and you totally quiet that 60Hz hum that single coil pickups are known for. If you run either volume higher or lower than the other, you'll always get that hum. It's not big deal when playing because the music covers it but can be annoying when everything else is quiet.

 

[JimmyM]

I swear some of these guys are getting checks from whoever the Rumble product manager is. It shows up as a solution in almost every thread. There's nothing wrong with the MB115.

I probably shouldn't say too much lest I get banned again, but I really detest that hit-and-run bomb dropping. Drops these ridiculous bombs, then ignores any replies calling him out on his silliness.

 

[johnpbass]

I probably shouldn't say too much lest I get banned again, but I really detest that hit-and-run bomb dropping. Drops these ridiculous bombs, then ignores any replies calling him out on his silliness.

He just dropped his .02 in the thread that actually appears under this one. I will say that his "best ever" count is high today!
EDIT: sorry 3 down from this thread LOL!

 

[jthisdell]

Drops these ridiculous bombs, then ignores any replies calling him out on his silliness.

If you asked "I can't figure out what to play over a C#dim9" his response would be "Buy a Rumble".

 

[jaco944]

I probably shouldn't say too much lest I get banned again, but I really detest that hit-and-run bomb dropping. Drops these ridiculous bombs, then ignores any replies calling him out on his silliness.

Man, I have a Rumble love it.. and have read many informative helpful posts about them. For the life of me I can't figure out how the post your talking about has ANY relevance to the OP's question. Not helpful, not informative.....like you said hit-and-run bomb dropping. Bass players as a whole are typically laid back and chill....until it comes to brand allegiance on these threads. SMH

 

[InhumanResource]

I probably shouldn't say too much lest I get banned again, but I really detest that hit-and-run bomb dropping. Drops these ridiculous bombs, then ignores any replies calling him out on his silliness.

There's a couple of users who do this here but a little more tactfully. This dude just drops bombs as you said.

It's annoying either way, though. No knowledge shared to answer the guy's question, just a bunch of bs.

Honestly if calling that kind of behavior out is ban-able I question even being here.

 

[InhumanResource]

Man, I have a Rumble love it.. and have read many informative helpful posts about them. For the life of me I can't figure out how the post your talking about has ANY relevance to the OP's question. Not helpful, not informative.....like you said hit-and-run bomb dropping. Bass players as a whole are typically laid back and chill....until it comes to brand allegiance on these threads. SMH

Yeah, I agree they are good amps. But they are not a silver bullet to solve every bass problem and certainly not an answer to OP's question.

 

[moogieotter]

I like this thread. When I was super noob and had my first real amp, all the stuff rattling around in the room sounded like distortion to me. Probably not the case here, but I thought I would share as part of my recovery from noob-ism. Thanks,

moogs

 

[lelandmccann]

Wow! You guys are extremely helpful.Thanks for all of the feedback. Seriously, these forums are the greatest thing ever. Real people helping real people, gotta love it.

I will add that my bass was just set up beautifully when the weather changed here in Michigan, so pickup height and such isn't a factor. As far as the Flatwounds go, I'm just gonna have to make it work tonally. I love these things so much I've gotta make it work with 'em!

So far, it seems that my issues were 1. Low EQ is just too high. Whoever said to try cutting it out a bit and relying more on the mids was right. Because of that, whoever said the speaker was "farting out" was exactly right too. Thats a perfect way to describe it. 2. I've found that backing off the Neck pickup just a touch makes a huge difference. I was maxing it out all the time, now its at maybe 80%-90% and sounds way better. 3. I was using the "blend" nob on the VT at 100%, because thats what was in the manual preset tones. Backing that off and blending more with the amp is key. 4. I didn't know that you really can't set a tone at a low volume and then expect to turn it up and still like the tone. That was part of the issue as well.

I'm well on my way to making this work. Thanks to all that have chimed in!

 

[lelandmccann]

Ignore that guy.

His answer to literally any amp related question is "sell the junk you own and buy a FENDER RUMBLE"

You mention wanting to cop a Motown vibe but are trying to get a very clean tone: those are diametrically opposite ideas.

All of Jamerson's classics lines had a LOT of tube color and even distortion on their transients.

Follow @JimmyM's advice: ignore the manual settings and just use your ears. The blend controls on the Tech21 units are crucial to finding the tones you want.

I suppose when I said "clean" tone I was not really using the right term. I like the tube color, but couldn't get the speakers to stop "farting out". It was like they were being pushed too hard, even at reasonable volumes, to the point that they couldn't produce much tone.

You're spot on about the Blend control. I was using it all the way up all the time. HUGE difference backing that off. Thanks!

 

[lelandmccann]

Much very good repsonses here, and I think people are barking up the wrong tree when blamed at Tech21 VT or the amp.
Although it should be not heard, try the bass guitar on some more amps, maybe in a music store. Pretend that you're in for buying a new amp, and wants to try with your own instrument. That "distortion" thing of yours would be troubling. While flatwound strings doesn't ever produce fret buzz they still can be too close to the fretboard, and the fret buzz is percieved differently than with roundwound strings. You may have to have your bass set up first, regarding pickup height and action. So you have made sure that the bass is NOT the source.

Your bass amps will be sufficient enough, I find it peculiar because I think the Tech21 VT is "instead" of an amp or speaker, you bring too much icing on the cake on the icing on the cake. You should be able to get great sound with just the GK or with Peavey. If you bought your bass brand new there's warranty. You can also, if you know friend with a similar bass as yours come down and try the amps out. You have to compare all alternatives first. Then if you know it ain't anyones bass, neither theirs nor yours go on and error search the pedal or the amp settings. A blown speaker will sound "blown" or distorted no matter what bass you play into it.

BTW Your bass isn't active is it? Never ever heard of any MIM Fender Jazz that was, but there may be some models I've missed. Pix would help.

I like the way the GK sounds on its own, but its tone is rather dull. I was hoping the VT would give some tube-ish color, but I was having a hard time getting anything but crunch out of it. I've seemed to remedy that a bit from trying things that have been suggested here.

The J-Bass is passive.

 

[lelandmccann]

He's just trying to get you to buy a Fender amp. He does that to everyone. It's an OK amp but so is yours and there's no advantage to buying another one unless you bump your budget a lot more. At best, it's a lateral move. And the VT is one of the most popular bass pedals of all time and does clean sounds just fine. My advice, however, is to ignore the suggested settings and just turn knobs till you get a pleasing sound. The VT is a rather complicated pedal, but it's a great one with a ton of versatility. kap'n'kro had some good advice as he's familiar with both pieces of gear. Keeping the master on your amp high and using the gain to set your volume is the best way to get a clean sound with your amp, although with SS amps, I prefer to have more gain because they sound ballsier when you have more gain, but if you're looking for clean at higher volumes, lowering the gain often does it.

Also, one thing that hasn't been discussed is your technique. What is it like? Do you play hard? Do you get string rattle when you play? Hard playing, especially if it creates string rattle, often comes across as distortion.

And don't worry about other bass players...they can either bring their own amps or they will deal with your amp on their own and don't really need you to set it for them. Plus they could also give you some really good advice if they know what they're doing.

Technique wise I would say I dig in a bit at points, but not to the point of string rattle. Really just a nice thump on the flats.

Thanks for the words about the amps I picked up. I was pretty sure I'd be able to get to a halfway decent spot with either of them. I'm not playing out or anything like that, so the need for crazy gear is just not there. I have too much drum equipment to keep up with!

 

[Honch]

Wow! You guys are extremely helpful.Thanks for all of the feedback. Seriously, these forums are the greatest thing ever

Yes, now in the beginning, we're all nice, helpful and stuff, honeymoon period... just wait a while until we all stick the knife in and turn several times...please, wait with the hyperbole.

 

[Honch]

but couldn't get the speakers to stop "farting out".

I like the way the GK sounds on its own, but its tone is rather dull.

You did not say if you bought the GK second hand, or brand new. That "farting out" speaker sound is by default "speaker distortion" and different from amp or preamp distortion. And is very less desirable when it comes to bass. Since it comes at 200W (although switched) I find this very very peculiar. There was a MB 115 mark II released somewhere down the line, I don't know the rationale behind that one. What was bettered with the II version compared to the first one. Or just more features.

I'll suggest - as before - if you have the time and possibilities try your bass with another GK 115 amp, preferably brand new at a store to see if it's farting out. You said earlier that it was the lowest notes that it started to fart out. A 15" at 200W should be taxed pretty loud before that even happens. This is with the eq settings flat of course. You told us you have some other amp too? Peavey head ? How much wattage? Same thing there?

There might be some problems (i e fault) with your GK after all, since that farting out is entirely different, from all kinds of preamp distortion, even if it's from a pedal. I don't think in terms of blown speaker, but some kind of other thing, with the power amp, some crossover, or a component inside that may have gone south.

You said originally in the OP post: "70's Peavey Centurion head with an older 1x15 cabinet." Have you tried your GK in that cabinet, does it sound the same? I don't know if you can use the GK and hook up another extension cabinet to that one. You will move a bit more air in the low end, but the overall volume may sound softer and not as loud. It depends on the OHM settings. I don't know.

All this seems a tad elusive to me. Mind you that GK manual says (among other things):

*Some passive instruments can have output
levels similar to active electronics. If the sound
is distorted the -10db pad should be used.

As I think you've been through it all by now, in a sort of "tried that, been there, done that" trial and error procedure, it starts to lean towards "something else". IMHO.

- - - - - - - -

Regarding the Fender Rumble panegyric around here:

I am on my third combo now Fender Rumble 200 W on warranty repair. 2 of them crapped out on me (distortion, farting out, low levels all of a sudden, once in the middle of a tune at a gig) before warranty period, and I had to change them out. Of course no problem with the music shops. Not taxing it anywhere near levels of havoc. Not anything above 12 a clock, and passive pickups. They do sound great though ... when they work. I'd wish I'd stayed with GK...ha! If this one happen to crap out on me again, it's definitely over-rumble for me!

 

[bobyoung53]

I I love playing old Motown and Funk/R&B type stuff. I tried running the VT Bass DI through the Peavey both through the power amp input, as well as through one of the instrument inputs with the EQ flattened out. The GK doesn't have an effects loop so it was going through the Passive Input with the EQ flattened,.

Is this just the nature of a 1x15 cab? Should I be running my instrument volume lower? Could there be something wrong with the VT Bass DI? Did I buy poopy amps that can't produce good tone? Is it just a curse because I'm a drummer?


Any help would be greatly appreciated! Cheers!

Keep your flatwounds, most of that stuff was played with Labella flats on a P bass and usually with an Ampeg B-15, no pedals, sometimes straight into the board. I would ditch the pedal at least at first and see how you sound running straight into the amp. I use flatwounds and get a very clear tone using a Precision and an Ampeg tube amp but you should be able to get a clear tone with your stuff also. Round wounds will take you in the opposite direction you want to go in.

 

[Kro]

Just out of curiosity, which version of the MB115 do you have? Do you know if it's the first or second generation (is the grill black or silver)?

I bring this next point up since it seems like you were pushing your speaker a little hard - and while taming the lows seems to have solved your problem for now, if you find yourself needing more volume or are interested in taxing a single 15 a little less, I'd suggest maybe selling off whichever bass rig you find yourself favoring least (since you bought two), and picking up an additional 115 for the remaining rig for additional volume/security. Everybody's volume needs are different, but I personally would feel a little uncomfortable with using a single garden-variety 15" cab for full-time use against a loud drummer (who knows maybe you're a very restrained drummer) - YYMV.

Unsure of what cabinet you have paired with the Centurion, though the MB115-ii is meant to be paired with the GK 115 MBP extension cabinet.

Lastly, now that you've addressed the undesirable speaker distortion, from your later posts it seems like you're ready for some distortion of the desirable sort! With that being said, I humbly update my VTDI recommended settings from the first page to include additional drive - even close to 12:00, which is close to the SVT setting in the manual, but without the additional scooping from Tech 21's post-sans-amp EQ recommendation (be warned, the VTDI's Low, Mid, and High EQ knobs effect the dry side of the blended signal as well - and if you're going to make tweaks at that point, it's better to do it from your GK IMO).

 

[Robert Sperling]

Are you sure that meets the "5 times the wattage and double the speaker surface area" criteria? Dang, I'll bet that rocks the house![

And then some! Rocks the house is putting it pretty mildly! Just ask my neighbors...