Trouble shooting the volume wars.

[SteveCS]

If you can hear him but he can't hear himself over everything else it is not really a question of volume but balance.

You know all those threads we have here about how this that or the other bass sits in/cuts through/gets lost in the mix and how "my bass sounds great at home but gets lost in rehearsal", it sounds like your guitarist might be getting the same issues - he knows how he wants to sound and can create the right sounds at home, but in rehearsal he can't hear himself as he hears it in his head. Being confused by why he cannot hear what he expects to hear, he just turns it up...

Possibly you could apply some of the thinking that goes on here to your situation, but to solve the guitarists problems...

 

[Robus]

Sounds like your guitarist already has some hearing damage, in addition to the damage between his ears.

Playing in a band like that is what I'd consider torture.

 

[ustabawannab]

May I suggest "Folding Utility Workbench".

Something like Amazon.com: ATD Tools 10325 Aluminum Heavy-Duty Platform: Automotive Aluminum heavy-duty platform is great if a lift of about 2 feet will do it for you, easy to move, and also useful when you're working on the house.

I know the exposure isn't good in the photo. It's a Bergantno HS410 on the portable aluminum stand. I also use it with my CN 212. I hear it very well. Just like my old SVT 810 but without the bulk. I put large rubber isolators on it to protect the cabs.

 

[miiitch]

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Put them on drawers. Gives you space to store things in, like cables or effects.

There´s two bands in the rehearsal room / studio. the right guitar cab is mine, the other guitar player´s cab on the opposite side, sitting on the same drawer.
Also note there´s no cab bigger than 2x12 in the room (bass is 4x10 + 1x15, and yup, that combo works just fine! ).
We can hear each other perfectly, and the storage room is super awesome

 

[karl_em_all]

Everybody turning down a bit allows the band to sound better and also more powerful. Mainly due to the fact that then everything can be heard and everyone plays better because of it. That's my experience from playing in metal and hard rock bands. But it's always a struggle as the war is ever raging.

 

[ustabawannab]

 

[GreyBeard]

You guys are looking hearing loss in your later years if you don't start controlling your stage volume. Guitar players by nature have to hear every little fret squeak. I personally have had to learn to be comfortable at a stage where I can JUST hear myself. If I turn up then everyone else starts turning up and the battle is on. Another way, believe it or not, is shooters ear plugs. They block a lot of the guitar sounds but leave the bass and save your hearing. If you absolutely have to hear everything you a are doing, look into IN EAR monitoring. Pain in the ass to get setup but you will totally enjoy the sound.

 

[Matty Koff]

Heh this thread got a little popular in my absence. So.. I'm just going to say.. when I got to rehearsal last night I felt like a jackass for writing my OP. He had run a line out to his vocal PA and sent his guitar signal to one of those monitors and faced it at himself. He was almost too quiet last night. To the guy who commented that being in this band would be torture.. nah.. I mean sure.. it's taken time to get to this point and for things to start happening but 2 of the members are 2 of my closest friends.. the drummer is crazy but a good guy at heart. In a few more months it'll be a year that we've been together and we probably have about 8 years worth of material written in that time to work with. The music is good.. and the members are better people than I made them out to be in my frustration with not being able to find a stand for a 4x12.

There is no other group of people any of us wants to be playing with. That being said we're both going to build him a box to elevate his amp, and he was even open to rearranging provided he could get permission to move something out of our room that has no purpose for being there. I did get some good advice here though. So thank you everyone.

 

[Matty Koff]

Oh, and I even mentioned a decibel meter. That is in the works.

 

[Matty Koff]

So heres what you do go buy an ampeg 8x10 and an svt. Or a solidstate amp that puts out over 1000 watts. Dime that amp and watch as the guitar dissapears in the mix!

Lmao. I saw an 8x10 mesa boogie cab for sale for $325 an hour away. I very much contemplated going and picking that sucker up and being all like "Say Heylo to my little friend" but with a bum shoulder and having had back surgery earlier this year I couldn't justify the weight of it.

 

[Clark Dark]

your guitarist needs to see an ENT asap specifically an aural specialist because it's obvious he has a problem. I've seen and heard guitarists dominate a stage with a single 12" Mesa Boogie series 1 on half power (60 watts), a half stack like you describe should be enough volume for any stage. tell your boy to get checked, it will benefit him in the future.

 

[Matty Koff]

your guitarist needs to see an ENT asap specifically an aural specialist because it's obvious he has a problem. I've seen and heard guitarists dominate a stage with a single 12" Mesa Boogie series 1 on half power (60 watts), a half stack like you describe should be enough volume for any stage. tell your boy to get checked, it will benefit him in the future.

I really think it's more of a positioning thing. It really is different having an amp at waist level and being 2 feet away from it and being 15' in front of it. Same for bass amps. I imagine that half power was also pointed towards his ears? Or am I wrong.

 

[MrLenny1]

I like bulldog's idea.
Do something about the volume, take care of your ears.
I did not and am paying for it dearly.
Tinnitus is a living nightmare.
No F%^&I^g guitar player is worth it.
A 2x12 for geetar is one too many.

 

[Clark Dark]

I really think it's more of a positioning thing. It really is different having an amp at waist level and being 2 feet away from it and being 15' in front of it. Same for bass amps. I imagine that half power was also pointed towards his ears? Or am I wrong.

No, the half power was pointed at the audience
okay, on most guitar amps you have the channel volume and then the master. if your guitarist is missing sustain he doesn't need to dime his controls and play it in the red until it's dead, he can set the input gain up and turn the master down which will give great sustain but at a lower volume. ask him to concentrate on the quality of his sound and less on the quantity. You can do likewise and get somebody to critique the mix.

 

[Matty Koff]

No, the half power was pointed at the audience
okay, on most guitar amps you have the channel volume and then the master. if your guitarist is missing sustain he doesn't need to dime his controls and play it in the red until it's dead, he can set the input gain up and turn the master down which will give great sustain but at a lower volume. ask him to concentrate on the quality of his sound and less on the quantity. You can do likewise and get somebody to critique the mix.

As I stated when I got around to talkbass today, we turned down considerably last night and he surprised me with things when I got there without me having to say a word to him. Apparently he is a team player, and is listening. I am honestly embarassed with myself for making the OP. We're on the right track.

 

[spaz21387]

Lmao. I saw an 8x10 mesa boogie cab for sale for $325 an hour away. I very much contemplated going and picking that sucker up and being all like "Say Heylo to my little friend" but with a bum shoulder and having had back surgery earlier this year I couldn't justify the weight of it.

Do it the look on your guitarists face would be priceless!

 

[King Kolon]

I play with a Guitarist that can't hear his Amp,(B-52--212- Combo, 100watt,All Tube) we put Kick Stands on either side of the Amp to kick it back at 30 Degrees. What a Difference.my Rigg balances well. SWR-BigBen Cab. Single E-155-4ohm, high output 101db sensitivity, 133db peaks output. 25hz-3k, freq. Response, excellent. 900w in.

 

[peledog]

The guitarists need to turn down their low mids and bass - not necessary - it's not a one man show. Always makes for a horrible stage mix.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

Thank you for that. That's an option. I could even build one to stand straight up and just keep it a foot or two off the ground. Reinforce glue+nails or screws with some kind of cover for the corners. Seems relatively inexpensive and potentially lightweight..

I was looking at the tilt back legs on a Fender Twin today and thought, aw, that's an even easier solution

 

[Johnny Crab]

Grown ups can handle this problem, We have to tell our lead guitar player to turn up a bit.
Speakers ear level for guys that feel they need to make their ears bleed.
This type does not play well with others due to the lack of listening to the rest of the band.
I wish you luck.

This.
Playing too loud(hearing damage loud) is plain stupid. There is no demand for deaf musicians and saying "What?" to everyone gets old.

Stories related to topic.
We did a multi-band show in which one band had a mandolin player with a small Fishman amp AT EAR LEVEL. That one amp over powered everything in cut through because it was at ear level. Ear plugs were used by me.

We did a Houston rodeo gig(tents are packed into the arena parking lot, companies rent space and have employees/clients visit) that put us backed up to another band with volume problems in the next tent. Talking to them did not work as they would not turn down or play at a reasonable level or coordinate breaks(we play, they break, they play, we break) etc. Our band leader had enough and declared war saying "I've had nough of this <deleted expletive>. I put earplugs in and leaned hard on a pair of ACME B2's and our guitarists and singer cranked BOSE systems(3 of them) AND we(all of playing for decades) listened to whatever song they started playing, started the exact song they were playing in the middle of the beat 1/2 step down from wherever they were playing it. 2 songs later and floundering(their drummer losing time and their singer getting very confused) through songs on their side of the tent made them much more cooperative.