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Trouble shooting the volume wars.

Matty Koff

Matty Koff

Inactive
Aug 21, 2014
2,312
3,286
Tennessee
#1
After months of playing too loud and me trying to suggest that low volume sounds better and that the guitarist stop becoming so loud that I can't hear my ghost notes resulting in me turning up.. to him turning up.. to me turning up.. we've finally started to look at lowering our volume.

Does anybody know anyone who elevates their 4x12 guitar cabinets?


I personally have flipped the 2x10 on top of my 1x15 vertical so at least one speaker is closer to my ear level. I like to stand in front of the drums when I don't need to kick on pedals.. Major problem is likely that my amp and the guitarist in question's amp are pointed right at each other.. and while the top speakers in his cab are angled, I feel like he must be standing close enough that he doesn't hear what I hear. Thing is beaming right at my face.

So I'm looking for a stand designed to lift the 4x12 up off the ground while not putting the head on the floor. The closest thing I've found is made by Atlas, who appears to be local.. but their prices are ridiculous, and the only stand that MIGHT do what I'm looking for cost about the price of both guitarist's amps + cabinets combined.

I'm not going to get into why we don't just rearrange. I'm working on that..but we musicians are fickle and stubborn for some reason.

What solutions do your bandmates use to get a 4x12 off the ground? Maybe other than milkcrates and folding chairs. I want something completely stable so when i kick my octave pedal on the thing doesn't fall over.

I know a lot of you will say find a new guitarist.. but that's not happening. We all appreciate the music we play too much to do that. But.. I think I'll be pointing some things out to them that they might not be aware of.. like the fact that I use talkbass, and who knows how many other websites researching solutions to these problems and I'm not sure any of them have read more than a paragraph of anything since high school, and that I'm not just talking out of my hind end when I suggest things like elevating amps closer to ear level and not pointing them at eachother.

And before anyone says "guitar cabinets sound better on the floor".. sure.. maybe for the guitarist who is standing there with his speakers at waist level while everyone else is being overwhelmed by the sound of one guitar in particular. But to anyone standing 10-15 feet or further away.. they're hearing something MUCH different. I'd think more people would be inclined to hear what their audience is hearing and adjust tone from there.
 
#2
I would not take the 4x12 off the floor. It will reduce the volume the audience hears. A cab on the floor does a couple of things. First, the floor works sort of like a horn and projects the sound out from the stage. If the stage is wood, it uses the stage like a passive resonator.
 
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#3
Our rehearsal space is on a concrete floor. He's the loudest guy in the room and complains of not being able to hear himself so he turns up.. when I could hear him clearly and even over my bass.

Not to mention.. in a venue that has a FoH system, the microphones are not going to pick up the resonance of any floor. They're on the speakers. Again.. what the guitarist hears, which is obviously not loud enough for his liking, and what someone like me standing 10-15 feet in front of his amp is hearing are two different things. Those speakers are aimed directly at my face. They're pointed at his waist and possibly mid torso.

That being said.. I want to try put the thing right next to his ears and see how it sounds. So again, if anybody knows someone who does this.. what method do they use? Again.. I am not arguing tone on floor, vs tone in air. I'm arguing that speakers often BEAM in the direction they're pointed and further away a speaker pointed at someone's face is going to sound louder than being close up and it being pointed at your hips. vs the other instruments in play. most of that sound is going to be lost in the mix of the full band anyway, or crowd the other members range of instruments.
 
#4
Matty Koff said:
Our rehearsal space is on a concrete floor. He's the loudest guy in the room and complains of not being able to hear himself so he turns up.. when I could hear him clearly and even over my bass.

Not to mention.. in a venue that has a FoH system, the microphones are not going to pick up the resonance of any floor. They're on the speakers. Again.. what the guitarist hears, which is obviously not loud enough for his liking, and what someone like me standing 10-15 feet in front of his amp is hearing are two different things. Those speakers are aimed directly at my face. They're pointed at his waist and possibly mid torso.

That being said.. I want to try put the thing right next to his ears and see how it sounds. So again, if anybody knows someone who does this.. what method do they use? Again.. I am not arguing tone on floor, vs tone in air. I'm arguing that speakers often BEAM in the direction they're pointed and further away a speaker pointed at someone's face is going to sound louder than being close up and it being pointed at your hips. vs the other instruments in play. most of that sound is going to be lost in the mix of the full band anyway, or crowd the other members range of instruments.
Click to expand...

Or even a succesful tilting system, which would keep it on the floor but aim it more upwards.. I'm specifically looking to keep the head on top though, so he doesn't have bend over everytime he wants to fuss with it.
 
#11
Gravedigger Dav said:
I would not take the 4x12 off the floor. It will reduce the volume the audience hears. A cab on the floor does a couple of things. First, the floor works sort of like a horn and projects the sound out from the stage. If the stage is wood, it uses the stage like a passive resonator.
Click to expand...

Actually, this has been a huge problem for me, since my cabinets are already folded horns. I use a piece of playground matting, which is three or four inches of rubber with a flat top and rubber feet on the bottom. It decouples my cabinet from hollow stages and eliminates the boom and mud. It also lowers apparent volume on solid surfaces, too, so I don't use it when the stage isn't hollow or doesn't boom.

As far as loud guitarists, one of the guys I play with on a regular basis has some rhythmic challenges, to say the least. He's also got a habit of being way too loud. I just make sure his amp is angled away from me a little and mine is angled away from him, so it parts his hair, but not mine. He uses a 2x12 combo. I don't recall what it is, but it sounds great when it's not too loud. He puts it on a stand, so the audience isn't blasted near as much as anyone too close to him on stage is. The audience is who matters, ultimately, so I can live with it.
 
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#12
By friend used to build plywood boxes to tilt speaker cabs so they could be used as monitors. You can cut the angle differently to pitch the speaker at a different angle.

Box.jpg
 
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#13
Frank Tuesday said:
Put the amps on the opposite side of the room (you stand in front of his cab, and he in front of yours.) Then his guitar cab is blasting your legs and will be loud to him and quiet to you. Likewise, your bass will be quiet to him and loud to you. This will lead both parties to turn down.
Click to expand...

Bassamatic said:
In rehearsals, I got the guitar player to out his guitar across the room pointing at him as Frank mentioned above. That helped. Get it away from pointing at his legs.
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Now this is something that hadn't crossed my mind. And a very fair point. I mean of course I can see where he's coming from..my amp IS pointed at him too. The reason for not rearranging the whole room is kind of questionable to me and I'm going to bring it up at rehearsal tonight.
48thStreetCustom said:
By friend used to build plywood boxes to tilt speaker cabs so they could be used as monitors. You can cut the angle differently to pitch the speaker at a different angle.

View attachment 653144
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. That's an option. I could even build one to stand straight up and just keep it a foot or two off the ground. Reinforce glue+nails or screws with some kind of cover for the corners. Seems relatively inexpensive and potentially lightweight..
 
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#16
IMO, a box to elevate is better than a tilt back option for 2 reasons
1. Where does the head go on a tilted cab?
2. a tilted 412 takes up a LOT more floor space than an elevated one.

A dummy cab, a plywood box, some milk crates w/ a blanket over them, there are even portable tables for keys and DJs rigs that will hold up a 412.
 
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#18
Ric5 said:
The problem is the 4x12 cabinet. Those things are low mid monsters and step all over the bass frequencies.

Get your guitar player to switch to a less powerful combo.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I sold him the cabinet, and a head, and he went and got a louder more low-mid frequency head. Lol honestly I think I've got this figured out. If i can just get him to stop being stubborn about rearranging the jamspace.. And if not.. I'll be like ok.. let's stay in the same places but put your amp behind me and my amp behind you.. He's got like 2 30ft guitar cables.. I've got one running from my amp to my pedalboard. so this is doable.
 
#20
Either set up facing each other - aim everything toward the center of the room, or position yourselves in front of the amps like you are actually the audience. This way the lower volume works, and you get a better blend. Also, if you tilt the cab, who says the head has to be on top of it? Put the head on some crates or something you built.

As always, if you can't hear each other talk in a normal talking volume, you are too loud.
 
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