Trouble with three fingers?

[Fergie Fulton]

In any technique we have to factor ability. Call it natural ability if you will, but it is just having the physical ability linked to the mental one in place. Many will not have it....to the extent the want. They can play but not the way they want to. So for them it is a quest to see if they can do what other seem to do with ease.

What works for one does not work for all.....but so long as what you do does work then consider it all well. It may seem hard at first but it will become easier the more you develop it. But of you keep changing techniques you never give any one a chance to succeed.
This is why the tried the tried and trusted methods of any learning works, its worth has been proven, and those that have trusted in it, that have the natural abilities in place to start with, will benefit the most.

For the rest it may be a quest to find better skills, for others it is just be comfortable with what we have got and develop it to its best potential and just enjoy playing and using the skills they have got.
Some cannot see what they have got because they are focusing on what other have, they fail to see the potential in their own skills strengths.
One finger or two fingers, three or four, leading with the index or leading with the right finger makes no difference when I listen...if what I hear sounds correct then it is.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Forgot about his take on it.

Gary Willis here.

I do play in a classical guitar position because it always been more confortable for me but I can't rake at all. So I won't. It is always a mixture of 3 and 2 fingers depending on what I do.

I posted that video because he just took a simple pentatonic scale and apply the technique ... most of the problems you see here can be resolved just with that. Work the damn technique with something you already know. Be it slap, 2, 3 or 4 fingers, use a pick or whatever it is so damn simple. You don't need any extra exercise. Someone who work on 3 fingers or whatever plucking technique , to me it is so obvious to take scale and arpeggio and work the new technique with it, You will learn the technique and to cross strings and muting at the same time. I guess it is too obvious.

 

[RWRLV]

But of you keep changing techniques you never give any one a chance to succeed.

I disagree with this!
One should NOT be changing but adding to.
Players spend their entire lives working on stupid lessons & exercises that have nothing to do with music. When one comes across a piece they must find a way to play it. If they attempt to duplicate what they hear then they must find a technique that assimilates it as such. OR they offer an original interpretation. I guess it depends if you are the band leader or you are being employed by other.

Some cannot see what they have got because they are focusing on what other have, they fail to see the potential in their own skills strengths.

Or some figure out that what they got is not helping them play the tune.
OR (agreeing with you) they have bought into this silly lessons & exercises are a must idea.
I don't know..... maybe lack of being able to afford when available & having grown up before such things as the internet, VCR's, TAB magazines etc etc has given me a different sense of whats going on today.

Hate to go all Old School here & speak of Back in the Day but......We used to put on a record /tape, listen, figure out, play, repeat. OR we were given sheet music with no other interpretation …..”here kid read this & play it.” If we were lucky we got a Mel Bay book. I would figure it was like that or worse for generations before mine yet many greats ( Jaco, Rocco, Stanley etc etc) came out of those generations.

The idea was figure out how to get it done & we all did, without these lessons & exercises. Also if you really wanted to be in the band Can't was not in your vocabulary.
Play ALL kinds of music & you will develop technique required to do so. If you put the hours in it will happen.

These lessons or TIPS as I like to call them are not for the player to dedicate a lifetime to but to just be aware this is how so & so does X, Y or Z ..use when need be. Implement it as you are rehearsing, jamming etc etc etc & it will become a motor skill of sorts.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

But of you keep changing techniques you never give any one a chance to succeed.

I disagree with this!
One should NOT be changing but adding to.
Players spend their entire lives working on stupid lessons & exercises that have nothing to do with music. When one comes across a piece they must find a way to play it. If they attempt to duplicate what they hear then they must find a technique that assimilates it as such. OR they offer an original interpretation. I guess it depends if you are the band leader or you are being employed by other.

if you keep changing techniques you never give any one a chance to succeed.

Or some figure out that what they got is not helping them play the tune.
OR (agreeing with you) they have bought into this silly lessons & exercises are a must idea.
I don't know..... maybe lack of being able to afford when available & having grown up before such things as the internet, VCR's, TAB magazines etc etc has given me a different sense of whats going on today.

Hate to go all Old School here & speak of Back in the Day but......We used to put on a record /tape, listen, figure out, play, repeat. OR we were given sheet music with no other interpretation …..”here kid read this & play it.” If we were lucky we got a Mel Bay book. I would figure it was like that or worse for generations before mine yet many greats ( Jaco, Rocco, Stanley etc etc) came out of those generations.

The idea was figure out how to get it done & we all did, without these lessons & exercises. Also if you really wanted to be in the band Can't was not in your vocabulary.
Play ALL kinds of music & you will develop technique required to do so. If you put the hours in it will happen.

These lessons or TIPS as I like to call them are not for the player to dedicate a lifetime to but to just be aware this is how so & so does X, Y or Z ..use when need be. Implement it as you are rehearsing, jamming etc etc etc & it will become a motor skill of sorts.

We are saying the same thing Rick, in the end a new player/student does not know the worth of what they learn, they need faith that what they are learning will be applicable to their playing lives.
Since they cannot understand this point, they are not qualified to comment on it, they may actually in some strange way fail to make it work because they cannot commit to it, because they believe there is better way to learn.
For them "better" means easier or faster, not deeper, not a complete understanding to expand, but the part of it that they in their un-qualified belief will work for them.

We have all met them in some form or another, those that have better ways or easier ways......until they meet someone that has the same skills or better skills.....and got them in half the time they did by doing the work. Then we get the excuses of work, personal life, finding time to practice etc.... Well all that is more reason to use your time productively and work harder, not find a way to work less and get the same result.

In the end all we can do is advise that if you do the work that is music based, tried and tested then you will get results, may not be the results you want, but again, that is because you will not be quailed to recognise the worth of what you have learned.......yet.

 

[RWRLV]

Just for comparisons sake & the fun of it, I pulled up this little 2/5/1 charm. Whousedtoplay or anybody try this one & let me know what you come up with.

I played it a few times & noticed I did not always play it the same way but played it the way I noted it more times than any other.

Side note! I hate TAB it took me more time to TAB it & note my plucking then to quick read through it & play it up to the noted speed

 

[RWRLV]

Whousedtoplay....Cool! I'll get back in here later on & check out what you came up with vs what I do. So far just reading it it seems interesting. If you don't mind, what software are you using for the notation?

 

[RWRLV]

For TAB needs, I'm using free Power Tab Editor v1.7 (Build 80)
After installing, just go View and check-mark Bass Score to switch from Guitar to Bass Score.
Just remember, you need to program/click on TAB lines/strings, the SN will appear automatically.
It takes some time to learn it, but it's easy.
Just remember - it's not perfect.

Thank you!!

As you know when you try to play something new, your right hand acts automatically/subconsciously.
When you try to write your fingering down, your brain gets involved and starts making adjustments.
My main concern and unhappiness was 3 “rakes” in your 4-bar example.
I’ve never paid too much attention, but… I use quite a few “rakings” with string-crossing, which is not good.

It appears we have differences in left hand technique & shifting preferences also.

Any comment on why you don't like the RAKE or find it not good? I would say I'm a raking fool

A little background on how I got to doing this”
Here is Billy's “how to” that I first saw in a magazine with a paragraph or two & some pictures. ( I couldn't find that online but found this video) I would have stumbled upon this article right about the same time I was playing in HS Jazz Band 85/86. So I had the 2 finger thing going on & was starting to experiment with 3. Other than Jazz band at the time I played with my buddies in a garage band doing hard rock covers, Iron Maiden, Hendrix, Purple, Zep, etc etc & with a bunch of old guys doing 50's stuff & a polka band. Not many guys even owned a bass let alone actually played one in a 10 mile radius I assume, so I was kept busy. I would say I really broke it in live doing the 50's stuff & more in more with my buddies in the garage.

Funny!!! I just found these today & I notice I do many of the same things he does.

 

[RWRLV]

I still "cheat" and use "raking" for fast descending passages (and don't want to abandon it), but for slower string-crossing, I decided to re-educate myself - be a better bassist.

Agreed!

I checked out a bunch of his videos. Great player!!! He seems to be primarily a 2 finger guy with "here & there" uses of other techniques. Some PIMA maybe in his back ground. Not an aggressive player at all.

 

[RWRLV]

They are so perfectly good and magnificent, but I continue my stubbornly amateurish quest to slowly incorporate my Pinkie and continue using my Thumb. I'm having fun.

Have fun! To each their own. That's pretty much what I was saying a some posts back. I would love to see some video if you ever get around to making some & to see how far you have got with your method. Same as I will continue to Rake. I will make notes & identify were I think it's an issue. Only time I could think of changing things is when in the studio & it is demanded by the client.

I would say, all those great bass players, but Billy Sheehan, from your videos, belong to the "elite" class of bass players playing the electric bass guitar more or less the traditional way.

I find Bill Sheehan to be a technical monster but agree his lack of non rock standards know how hurts him in situations as in the Bass Day. Though he doesn't sound cookie cut a more trained ear can tell he blanketed the entire piece not paying any attention to the feel nor the harmony.

I'm also a follower & student of Berlins. He himself will say his technique is minimal when compared to his younger peers. As far as his lite picking style he claims is best for all, IMO it don't work so well in the rock vibe.

I'm not big into Stu but he's clean & efficient. I'm also not into the 6 string guys wanking on that high string all the time either.

I'm not hip to Manring ..I never paid much attention. I am big into Rocco Prestia, I like Jaco, Mark Egan& certain Geddy Lee stuff.

When you start listening to those academically educated, "cream-of-the-crop" elite bass players/instrumentalists, sometimes it's even difficult to discern them.
Different strings, bass guitars, amps, effects, etc... do not/cannot change their ways of expressing themselves, their mood, feel, character, etc...
They are so exclusively (jealously) stylish that I will never achieve their level of mastership.
To me, Style means limits, borders, completion, something like Latin ("dead").
Please note, it's only my opinion; therefore, don't listen to me.

I think I'm agreeing & get most of what your trying to say here.

This conversation has been enjoyable.

Sorry to the OP for hi jacking the thread..Hope you find some good tips/info in here.

Whos.... feel free to PM if you would like to talk shop any further.

 

[superfly8564]

I find it interesting that you want to use a three finger technique to play 16ths. The only time I ever need (or want) to play with three fingers is with triplets when I want to get that real galloping feel, I will use my ring finger to rake when i am playing continuos 16ths or most commonly when I am playing funk and skipping strings (think Canned Heat). Not assure if my style matches up to yours but here is what I do/did to make the third finger flow. As one of the fellas said, use your middle and ring finger for this exercise. Mute with your fretting hand and slowly and strongly play triplets on each string always returning to the E (or B if you play 5). So it's E-1-2-3/ A-1-2-3/ E-1-2-3/D-1-2-3/E1-2-3/G1-2-3.....Do NOT worry about speed but rather play very strong. Do this exercise for about 10 minutes every day. It will strengthen your fingers very quickly and believe it or not, strong fingers easily transfer to fast fingers. I was shown this exercise about 20 years ago when I couldn't quite reach those Jaco speeds and in no time I was playing finger funk. Good luck bro!

 

[DannyBob]

I find I can only do three fingers with a swung-type shuffle triplet feel

 

[Ric5]

I'm trying to get three finger technique down solid to hopefully play 16ths much easier. I can do 2 fingers no problem like anyone that plays fingers can, but making that jump to 3 seems impossible. It feels extremely awkward with the ring finger. I know theoretically if you keep your fingers close to the string you should be able to hit them faster, but when I do it that ring finger just won't do it no matter how hard I try it just flys backwards naturally. Obviously practicing more is the best way to go but does anyone have any other advice to bestow?

I find no advantage for 3 fingers over 2 fingers.

 

[lfmn16]

I don't know if I'd call the OP a troll, but when he didn't respond to any posts in this thread I looked in his profile and notice that he started 6 threads and has a total of 6 posts.

 

[Fenwick]

I find no advantage for 3 fingers over 2 fingers.

Then you aren't seeing what is right there. Besides speed, endurance is an advantage to using a 3-finger technique. It is also handy for some string skipping patterns.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Then you aren't seeing what is right there. Besides speed, endurance is an advantage to using a 3-finger technique. It is also handy for some string skipping patterns.

You are right, but it is tied in to the variables of the song.
Tempo is a good variable, slower tempo's will negate any advantage of three over two, as will the lack of subdivision higher than quarter notes.

Some players and their genres do not need to develop any more than one or two fingers, or the use of a pick in their playing lives.
Developing techniques such a multiple finger plucking are great for the hand and as Fenwick says offers options.

But if you play two finger and fancy the idea of three finger then do not develop it to play what you can already, you will find the mind set becomes "why complicate what I can already do"? You run the risk of getting frustrated and demotivated.....this leads you to give upon it, or worse....dabble in it rather than work on it.

To really get motivated develop it to play more complicated ideas, this will keep you focused on the hearing the finished song and the fruits of your labours.
You do not have the option to play it, so hear it, any other way so have to follow through with your practice to make it work.

Once you start getting it down you will find that you start to use three finger technique as a partial use or as I call it 'ocassional three finger'.
It is occasional because the third finger joins in when needed, you do not make this a conscious desision as such, but your brain works out that it is easier if an extra finger is needed and uses it as and when.
This can only happen of the fingers are toned and ready to be used, so even though I practice three finger strict alternation every day, I rarely use it professionally in that use, but I do use it often as a three finger ocasssional use.

My situation is different from many, but be familiar to some, because I was a trained orchestral brass player as a child, so I was using training and toning three fingers to play by virtue of the valve work I done.
I used three fingers when I first started playing bass as my standard plucking technique because it was natural, easy and I knew no different because the resources we have today did not exist when I started.
I did not suffer the usual problems of right hand coordination when I took up bass, I was playing gigs within a week and was very fluient within a few weeks as far as any plucking technique was concerned.
Again, even now my situation is different because after 45 years of playing I do not always practice what I preach, but that is because experience takes over and allows me certain liberties within what I do.

If you are willing to take a "leap of faith" in learning to expand your playing in any form, I can say it will pay off in the long run....I am still getting the benefits of mine 45 years down the line, and still developing what I do.

 

[RWRLV]

composition with a simple triplet bassline and my accordionist's mentality immediately said,
"Use three fingers - R - M - I."

This is the exact same way I started playing this way

Who's I took that power tab & did this with it. I had been working out Coltrane's GS solo. It's fun & good practice.
No Pinkies but Lots of Raking

I absolutely despise tab but since we are trying to show each other how we arrived at technique & we cant sit face to face this is the only way. Plus it's how the software works.
Enjoy

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Just a question.
Now that we are discussing the right hand technique, I've noticed a very strange thing:
I never look/glance at my right hand fingers.
Somehow, they know exactly what string I'm playing. My right hand fingers, without any visual contact from me, know and anticipate any of my bassline's movements, string-crossings, etc... The same thing is when I'm playing slap.
Why?

The simple answer is, It's just the simple act of your playing coming from the neocortex area of the brain, this is where learned skills are stored and accessed via the sub-conscious. We have many skills that come from there such as tying shoe laces or a tie, using a knife and fork, riding a bike etc, but they were learned using the Frontal Lobe and short term memory.
Truth is you once did always look at you plucking hand as much as you fretting hand.
But though practice and play you learned that the plucking hand on a four string,20 fret bass, only four options to use......the fretting hand on the other has over 80 options. The plucking hand's four options are fixed and easily accessed with little or no positional change, the fretting hand has to cover a wide area and various options and many changes in position.
Add in finger use, now the fretting options are more as you now have to make choices of what finger to use. Learn to strictly alternate the fingers and that gives you just the four strings again as options....the fingers will play whatever string you choose.....no thought needed as the technique removes the need to think.

This applies with any technique, learn it trust it and stop thinking about.
There is a more involved answer i can give about how the Frontal Lobe and the Neocortex areas in the brain can influence or disrupt skills, but i think this brief explanation does the job.

 

[radioface]

Sometimes, I use 4 fingers, sometimes 3 fingers, sometimes 2 fingers, and sometimes just my thumb. What's the big deal?

 

[RWRLV]

Sometimes, I use 4 fingers, sometimes 3 fingers, sometimes 2 fingers, and sometimes just my thumb. What's the big deal?

None really. IMO we have just talked shop & compared notes. We analyzed certain players styles picking technique and material & we have looked at possible things one might play where one or the other method may work better or not at all. In the end I think its really just been a conversation about being aware rather than haphazardly blowing through a piece & thinking your doing just swell. Being aware that other than being able to use one or multiple fingers with ease that the execution & articulation is all good.

 

[nysbob]

Fergie is like my brother from another mother - I can't articulate it any better than him, but my attitude & approach is very similar to his.

I assimilated 3 finger into my playing about two or 3 years after I picked up bass - I think the first guy I saw doing it was Rob Grange back in '72 or so. It was also clear to me he wasn't doing it for speed so much as stamina and articulation.

Taken to the extreme, there is no question you can produce more notes within a given time span by using three, but when people say they don't get it or don't need it, I completely understand that.

If you want to take it on, it can be definite asset...but there are plenty of stellar players that don't do it at all.