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Truss Question

MrBKerth

The Gypsy Bravado
Apr 20, 2013
726
210
Texas
scumpopband.wixsite.com
Hello. Used the search function but didn't have anything come up. I'm probably using the wrong keywords. Anyways, I know a guy with a vintage jazz that he's had to add washers to the truss rod. This sounds off to me, and I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to educate me.

How does this help keep the truss functioning?
Is this a temporary fix?
He claims that he could just add more washers if it maxes out. Is there a limit to how much this can be done?
 
Hello. Used the search function but didn't have anything come up. I'm probably using the wrong keywords. Anyways, I know a guy with a vintage jazz that he's had to add washers to the truss rod. This sounds off to me, and I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to educate me.

How does this help keep the truss functioning?
Is this a temporary fix?
He claims that he could just add more washers if it maxes out. Is there a limit to how much this can be done?

Its a very common fix, the reason a truss rod maxes out is because the threaded end bottoms out in the nut, or the nut hits the ends of the threads. A washer or two, will give you a few extra turns before this happens. There is nothing temporary or off about it.
 
Its a very common fix, the reason a truss rod maxes out is because the threaded end bottoms out in the nut, or the nut hits the ends of the threads. A washer or two, will give you a few extra turns before this happens. There is nothing temporary or off about it.
Ok. I had seen that it wasn't uncommon per se`. I just wasn't sure how much longevity it gave the neck. A few turns is quite a bit more adjustment. I asked just cause I'm considering purchasing the instrument, and wasn't entirely sure about it. Thanks Hopkins!
 
Ok. I had seen that it wasn't uncommon per se`. I just wasn't sure how much longevity it gave the neck. A few turns is quite a bit more adjustment. I asked just cause I'm considering purchasing the instrument, and wasn't entirely sure about it. Thanks Hopkins!

It really just depends on if it finds its equilibrium, and just needs that extra bit of movement to be in proper adjustment and is stable there.
 
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Yeah, but.......You should understand what this means. The reason why washers are added to Fender truss rods is because the nut has run out of threads on the rod. The reason it has run out of threads is that it has been overtightened, beyond its design limit, causing the wood around the anchors to crush and compress. The truss rod has literally been pulled about 1/4" out of the neck, by force. The reason that the truss rod has been overtightened that much is that the neck has bowed forward, beyond what the truss rod is intended to be able to straighten out. And someone has abused it, trying to twist that last bit out of. So, it's not a nice healthy neck. It has a significant forward bow and a damaged truss rod.

Adding the washers is a patch that can often bring a bowed neck like that back into a useable range. But it doesn't fix the underlying problems. It doesn't make the truss rod any stronger, or reinforce the crushed wood, or fix the bowing. It just allows you to continue overtightening the truss rod a little bit further. It may be enough. If the neck wood has finished drying out and moving around, then it may be fine like that with the washers for many years. But if it keeps bowing further, then you've got a problem. If you try to apply even more load to the truss rod, it will either continue to crush further internally, or you will snap it. Because, again, adding the washers doesn't reinforce anything or make it capable of taking more load. The crushing is proof that it's already doing more than it can.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy the bass. It may be fine as it is for many years. But, you should know that it's in a marginal condition. If it gets worse, it will need surgery.
 
Bruce I have to point out, with visual help below, that the washer helps enormously.

One a washer acts as a bearing, the turning nut applies bending force to wood fibers as it rotates by the ends. The chamfered ends exacerbate the problem because of the chamfers leaving a small contact patch.

Two, the end if the nut is chamfered on the edge and in the hole reducing the contact area taking all the force of the truss; adding a washer spreads the load over more surface area in the hole. There is good reason that washers are used under bolts in wood construction.

Nothing is forever but a washer will help for a long time. See the reduced contact caused by the chamfer.
ImageUploadedByTalkBass1417923677.866924.jpg
 
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Yeah, I agree that a washer improves the bearing area under the nut, but... I've taken apart a lot of Fender necks where the truss rods have been crushed in and/or snapped off, and in all cases (that I've seen) the crushing mostly happens at the anchor end, the other end. The design of the anchor end of the standard Fender truss rod is the weakest link. It has less surface area pressing against the wood than the nut end, so it crushes first. If the truss rod is really cranked hard, then both ends will crush in.

I don't do Fender neck rebuilds any more, but in years past, I've replaced truss rods in probably a hundred of them. Same general story: Neck has excessive bow; truss rod is crushed in from overtightening; then usually the rod gets snapped. I do remember one neck in particular where the truss rod had pulled so far that it was actually sticking out the heel! It was amazing to me that the neck hadn't split wide open, up around the 1st fret. When I opened it up, I found that the anchor had just pushed the wood aside, squashing it. That particular board must have had a very soft center core.

I sometimes wonder if Leo & Co designed it that way deliberately. It becomes a tell-tale indicator if someone has over torqued the truss rod. Use a depth gauge to measure the depth of the end of the rod in relation to the heel surface, and there's the answer.

By the way, if the rod isn't broken, the crushing can be fixed to some degree. Basically, you tap the rod back into its original depth, then drill a small hole (I think right under the 1st fret?) and inject hard epoxy down into the pocket of crushed wood.

But, of course, that still doesn't solve the real problem, which is that the neck is bowed. That has to be fixed by leveling the frets (in mild cases), using heat to straighten the neck, or pulling the frets and re-machining the fingerboard surface.

I keep bringing this up because this is the main reason why so many necks get damaged or ruined. This is a particular problem with Fender necks, but the same thing happens to modern necks with the new-fangled double rod truss rods. In almost all cases, truss rods get broken because someone overloads it while trying to flatten out a bowed neck. Way beyond a reasonable relief adjustment. If the truss rod is tight, and the neck still has too much relief, then stop right there. The neck is bowed and it needs to be fixed. At that point, fixing the bow usually isn't that big of a job. Releveling or resurfacing. But, if you keep twisting and damage or break the truss rod, then it's a major rebuild. Which, in many cases, will cost more than the neck is worth.

I'm just trying to do my civic duty to prevent the destruction of nice old necks!
 
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