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Tube and Solid State

seamonkey said:
Can't own every amp out there. Can't say that experience with one or a few amps equates to every amp out there. The people who wrote the books on the link lived and breathed tubes. Collectively it says more.

Even the amp manufacturer manuals and recommendations disagree with you. Ampeg for one.

Fighter plane radar tubes are not audio tubes. And they had regular maintenance. Like after every landing. There's no modern military use for tubes used in audio.

This tube reliability argument comes down to the 90 day warranty manufacturers put on them. That says the most.

Seamonkey you tend to use the reliability issue every time. You for sure know the tech stuff very well, and have lots of nice points and and good arguments regarding how good SS has become. I'll agree with you the SS amps are the future, and several of the modern class D amps such as the Ampeg PF series and the TC amps shows us that one can get serious tube tone without any single tube AND pack everything in a small neat lightweight box which deliver more power then the average big tube amps. But at the same time I am quite sure that tube amps are NOT the past, quite the opposite! The better the class D amps will become, the more curious some users will be regarding trying and owning a real tube amp. There actually. Quite many new tube amps in the market, the Orange AD200 is a good example. The Nexus is not that old and the Peavey VB-3 even use switch-mode power supply in order to reduce weight.

Back to the reliability thing. My son have a EBS T90. One look inside the amp tells me that there in much that can go wrong inside there, as there is almost nothing inside there..... Several big components which seems to be really easy to service. So tube amps are a bit like older cars, might need a bit more service than the new ones, but the service could be done by the user ( i.e. Changing tubes). New amps, there are like new cars (where is the spark plugs in new cars? one need to remove 2kg plastic to reach them!), might need less service, but if something goes wrong... You must go to a tech guy, and he most likely will not be able to fix much, and will have to replace a major unit.
 
Thought maybe a repeat of the OP's question might help? :rollno:

oh yah what was that again...oh yah i think we covered it.
Mainly because once you go over 300 tube watts the output transformer is going to be around 22 to 27 pounds to support 400watts or higher. Most SVT's have 18 to 21 pound output transformers and about the same for power. With the right speaker system you dont need more than 200/270 watts. Otherwise speaker cabinets are so overrated and solid states have been too. We have people that think they throw around 400 or 600watts. But the real world power is 190 to 330 watts actually being used by most players.

A piece of balogna fried on a 6L6 makes for a delicious snack.

I prefer chicken strips over 6550/KT88s. Those babies can COOK!

oh for sure you got to try these cheese Quesadilla's courtesy of my guitards Mesa poopy recto rooter amplifier.:D

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OK, all good

I'm not buying into the headroom argument. The SS amp just needs to reproduce a signal. They are cheap and easy to make with plenty of power. I guess it really doesn't matter.

Clipping in the FOH amps is not that bad. It happens. And they bi and tri amp. For subs you can clip high and mighty and not hear it.

If you're going to bother clipping. A good modern SS amp stays linear up to clipping. Clipping itself isn't linear but a good modern design does nothing but clip. It doesn't become unstable. This clip is not as bad as some on this would have you believe. There is some high frequency components to clipping, but this also is not as percentage wise as you'd think. 20% and you'd hear it but you wouldn't run for the hills. 10% and it's questionable if you hear it. 1% and you can't hear it. Extra high frequency comes from the input source, not from clipping itself.

Rane has a good technote on this
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If you're going to drive into clipping then turn the treble down. Use tone controls for tone shapping with distortion anyhow.

Again I agree and you brought a very good point about limiting in bi-amp systems.

I have a couple of dirty cheap PA active speakers by Behringer (B1220DSP or something like this). Bi/amped, 12'', 450+150 Behri (peak?) watts. Very good for voices at their price point, perhaps a bit on the heavy side (I got a very good price when they introduced a new version with ABS case and D class amps, saving a good 40% of the weight).

Once I did a rehearsal connecting my 5-string active bass direcly to them. It was at low volume, I was surprised to hear a relativley good quality at low volume. I noticed not hearing the fundamental tone in he 4th and 5th string was not that bad.

At the end I decided to crank up volume carefully just to hear what happened. The sound was not that bad because the steep HP filter in the woofer prevented the 12'' from farting, and instead of clipping I had very decent limiters for the low frequencies, resulting in nice distortion when volume was really comparable to a regular 150W bass combo (perhaps better than a friend's Bassman combo this power). And the Mid/Hi driver was reproducing cleanly the mids and highs (its amplifier was not affected at all by the bass channel with the limiter doing its job), so overall sound was lacking deep lows but it was powerfull and even nice, no problems with clipping or farting when using a relatively small PA speaker with my 5-string!

I knew the theory but I was surprised to hear myself what modern bi-amp (or tri-amp) systems can do. Specially with low frequencies not supposed to be reproduced with a CHEAP Behringer 12'' PA speaker.

I have tried guitar amplifiers in the 200...300€ range that cannot do this. They sound so nice at low volume and any gain. But so bad when you try to play loud.

In my opinion it is not uncommon to see that PA technology is ahead of bass and guitar amplification
 
Reading a book is one way to learn some things about tubes and tube amps. Another great way to learn about them is to own and use them for decades.

I have...

Tubes can, and often do last for decades and continue to sound great! Sorry SeaMonkey. It's just the way it is.

Small signal tubes, yeah. Power tubes run hard - no.

Reality is, transistor/fet output devices have significantly longer lifespans under normal usage conditions.

Now that doesn't mean tubes fail regularly or that they're maintenance hogs. They aren't. But MTBF for power output devices is definitely lower with a tube amp.


Heck, even fighter planes managed to utilise vacuum tubes in critical circuits. I think a bass amp application is a smidge less demanding.

1) They are used for a very specific reason that doesn't relate at all to amplification technology (EMP resistance) - unless you're in a nuclear blast.

2) They were mostly used in digital circuits, an application which is actually less demanding by far than small signal amplification.
 
Ya, obviously if you run tubes into the red all the time you'll cut down on their life considerably. Rare is the tube amp I run into the red, and if I do, it's usually not for long. So tubes last me years. I will say, though, that I was recently bummed to have lost a couple pre tubes in my B-15 that had only been in there for 3 years. NOS Sylvanias, too. But $30 later, it works good as new. Big deal.
 
A good question, Jon. Unless you can see signs of wear, you really don't know 100%. Having a guy you can trust comes very much in handy. I go to Vacuum Tubes, Inc., Vacuum Tubes, Electron Tube, Radio Tubes, Audio Tubes, Industrial Tubes, Guitar Tubes, Capacitors, Tube Sockets, Tube Testers because he's local, and he's a very trustworthy guy who does his best to be honest about stuff like that, and none of the tubes he's sold me as NOS show any signs of being anything but honest to goodness NOS.
 
Tube maintenance huh?? Ok so the FCC before they dereg'ed required transmitter finals to be replaced every 15,000 hours whether needed or not......and 99% of the time not needed. How many run here run their amps 24 hours a day for 18 months straight?

You're not talking about the same devices.
Otherwise 2-cycle lawnmower engines, and locomotive engines are the same, mice and elephants are the same animal.
Heck, we share 50% of DNA with a Banana. Things just aren't the same.
 
Modelling keeps getting better. But the methodology always seems to be skewed towards the listener instead of the player. I might not always be able to tell whether or not an amp is 'real' in a recording, but I sure as heck can tell whether I'm plugged into one when I'm making music! And that, imo, is a pretty HUGE difference!

They do work for many situations.
The IK Amplitube models are Officially certified by Ampeg and another manufacturers, Orange, Fender. GK, Including the cabinets and mics.

The modelers are dynamic. And they let you use the amp dynamics and levels you could never achieve with the original without a power soak. And conversely, very subtly at high volume levels.

Ampeg even officially certified a whole product "Ampeg SVX" - which bundles several Ampeg products. Amps are modeled down to component level, and the final is Ear tuned by Ampeg engineers.

Keyboard players used PC for years. Singers and Guitars are now jumping on board. Even woodwinds.

Want to go minimal, An iPad or even iPod and an amp is all you need.

It's no longer SS and Tube, it's modelers also. Not everyone can find or afford the originals, but they can play them.
 
A 1000 watt tube amp would also require a ridiculous amount of power tubes. As it is, it costs a small fortune to replace the power tubes in a 300 watt SVT, for example.

Not necessarily but you would, like the original SVT, have to venture into transmitter tube territory. As posted it's the transformers that are the killer for a high power tube amp. Add to that the extremely high voltage, way more than a 1KV, that would be required would concern the folks at UL and CSA.
 
Keep in mind, Seamonkey has never played through, much less owned, an all tube amp.

Somehow I KNEW this thread was going to be full of his misinformation. I almost didn't open it. Should have gone with my first instinct.
 
A good question, Jon. Unless you can see signs of wear, you really don't know 100%. Having a guy you can trust comes very much in handy. I go to Vacuum Tubes, Inc., Vacuum Tubes, Electron Tube, Radio Tubes, Audio Tubes, Industrial Tubes, Guitar Tubes, Capacitors, Tube Sockets, Tube Testers because he's local, and he's a very trustworthy guy who does his best to be honest about stuff like that, and none of the tubes he's sold me as NOS show any signs of being anything but honest to goodness NOS.

Not slighting your connection, he can only be as good as his supplier. I picked up a old tube case at a garage/estate sale last month. Was going nuts as someone else was trying to buy it right behind me, long story short clean RCA and Mullard boxes. Two 7025s and one 6L6GC RCAs with poor emissions in the whole lot of 20 boxes.
 
seamonkey said:
They do work for many situations.
The IK Amplitube models are Officially certified by Ampeg and another manufacturers, Orange, Fender. GK, Including the cabinets and mics.

The modelers are dynamic. And they let you use the amp dynamics and levels you could never achieve with the original without a power soak. And conversely, very subtly at high volume levels.

Ampeg even officially certified a whole product "Ampeg SVX" - which bundles several Ampeg products. Amps are modeled down to component level, and the final is Ear tuned by Ampeg engineers.

Keyboard players used PC for years. Singers and Guitars are now jumping on board. Even woodwinds.

Want to go minimal, An iPad or even iPod and an amp is all you need.

It's no longer SS and Tube, it's modelers also. Not everyone can find or afford the originals, but they can play them.

I really like the Ampeg modeler on my Amplitube iPad. It was my favorite "practice" amp until Amkit came with the Solando modeler.
But still, I want say no if Jimmy will insist on sending me a B15 :)
 
1) They are used for a very specific reason that doesn't relate at all to amplification technology (EMP resistance) - unless you're in a nuclear blast.

Actually, the EMP resistance is more a myth. That stuff was tested ages ago and while tubes were actually more withstanding to EMP than transistor circuits of those days many of them still failed due to it, not to mention, the equipment in general failed because the EMP toasted resistors, caps, coils, and all sorts of things. It was reasonable to say that EMP killed tube equipment just as well as it killed solid-state, the failure mechanisms just were somewhat different.

All in all, if you really want to protect stuff from EMP then you’ll be looking whole different issues than whether the active devices are tube or solid-state.

Yes, there were tubes in fighter planes, mostly in soviet ones. The reason for that was merely that their transistor technology was not on par with the western one and they could more easily get tube replacements at remote areas than transistor replacements. …Which, sort of tells that they expected that failure is indeed a serious possibility and replacement parts for repairs had to be stocked. And they had huge stocks of tubes. Another issue was that tubes, due to their enormous waste heat, did not require elaborate temperature compensations at higher and lower altitudes. Mostly, soviets just likely had to live with the fact that at those days the only thing they could work with were tubes.

Kinda like it was in the 1940’s and early 1950’s all over the world.

2) They were mostly used in digital circuits, an application which is actually less demanding by far than small signal amplification.

Never heard about the digital part and I'd wager a guess that when it comes to tubes the applications the digital stuff would be far demanding than basic linear applications. ...Or at least the world got pretty quickly rid of tube-based computers and class-D amps with tubes are likely more a total fiasco than success. So far most of the “tubes in a fighter jet” stuff revolves around the MIG-25, which as far as I know, was more of a mix of tubes AND transistor circuits. There was, for example, a voltage regulator tube in the power supply of the radio system (which today is (mis)used as an audio tube in certain applications) but rest of the radio circuitry is more or less undocumented so the entire audio part may have as well been transistor-based. In fact, that 6C33 tube is the only exact reference of somewhat generic tubes being used in a fighter plane I’ve ever heard… unless we talk about a lot older stuff.

Radars, radar jammers, target locking systems, etc. were at least somewhat tube based, and likely they still are since they are the special kind of stuff that doesn’t really have an equivalent solid-state counterpart. Needless to say, those tubes have nothing to do with audio tubes or even (supposed) EMP resistance and if you ever saw such a tube you might likely mistake it for a large motor.

Even when MIG-25 was discovered the use of tubes was sort of a miracle to western world and I doubt the soviets used them for long once they have had their transistor technology developed to a better state.

Now, if we want talk about fancy military stuff then let’s talk magamps...
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...amplifiers based on saturable cores of transformers, and which totally beat the tubes to oblivion in reliability. The navy still uses them in some radio systems of battle ships, and they were also used in avionic applications, missiles, computers, power supplies, you name it. ….And they are so obscure and vintage technology (predating even tubes) that they just must be 100 times warmer sounding than all tubes in the world together, clip so much softer than tubes and have orgasmic touch response, mostly because they generate only paranormal harmonics. And therefore one magamap watt must be equivalent to 1.21 jigatubewatts. Of course, I don’t have to substantiate any of such claims, I just believe them because some guru in Internet told me so. I think someone could also arrive to a conclusion that since military still actually uses magamps they must be resilient to both EMP and to mind-controlling laser rays of UFO’s.