I would agree that 4 Pro is not all that far off of a clean running all-tube SVT. But there is a difference and I can hear and feel it when I use one or the other.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Tube power sections, what am I missing?
- Thread starter jazzbass_5
- Start date
Yes, the difference are the harmonics an all tube amp can produce as I mentioned a bit later in this thread
Now I am not a tech but I think it's more than harmonics, a tube head has a big sound that cannot be accounted for completely by harmonics because most harmonics come from the bass itself not from the amp and if you have strong amp generated harmonics coming from a tube amp it is because it is being played beyond it's clean output capabilities, which does not explain why a tube amp sounds so big when it is being run comparatively clean. SVT 300 WATTS RMS at about 2% distortion IIRC, when it's being run momentarily at 30 watts it's still fairly loud and is very clean but it still sounds just as big as when it's blasting loud, say when you punch it a second later. I say momentarily because unless you are putting a constant amplitude signal into it like a keyboard bass the output will be all over the place, like driving a car is traffic
True, I should have said, "an all tube amp lets the harmonic go through itself better than an SS amp".
How would you describe that difference? The presence of the harmonics with the SVT 2 ?
Maybe. I would have to sit down with both for an hour or two to put it into words, I think. I just chalk it up to the usual differences between tube and solid state.
If I am an engineer, and you ask me to build an amplifier and the only requirement is to make it sound "good." - I will build you an amp with 0.0 db of gain with an output sine wave that is an exact duplicate of the input. The only thing making it an "amp" is that the ouput will drive a low impedance speaker load where your instrument could not. So essentially an active impedance transformer. Anything else is subjectively "good."
Naw. There's plenty of harmonic energy happening in both tube and SS amps.
People gripe about amps being flat, not adding anything to color the input signal.
Well that is one of the technical descriptions of a good amp. The output is the same as the input.
Use the same bass with a tube amp and then with an SS.
It's not that the the tube is letting the harmonics through and the SS isn't.
Tube and SS amps just generate harmonics that are different from each other.
Bass players as a species have "tube sound is good" in our DNA because that's what we evolved with.
We find ourselves having to adapt to SS amps.
Once Darwinism (if you believe in that) has allowed us to fully adapt to SS amps, we will, as a species, be singing (playing) a different tune (tone).
My analogy: Kinda like the difference between butter and margarine
Both can be used for basically the same things, they just have different fat (harmonic) properties. I love butter, but we mostly use margarine around the house.
I love tube amps myself, but I only gig with SS/Class D amps because
1. Who in the audience at a local bar can tell the difference? Maybe .0001 percent. Heck, we have a standing gig once a month gig at one venue and the band doesn't even notice that I hardly ever gig with the same amp twice there unless I say something, and they are like "oh, ok", lol. And on top of that, if you are playing a large venue, you may get a mic, but you always can use DI. And how much of that difference really makes it to the audience with all of the compressors and limiters and other SS technology used in PA systems? not much.
2. Tube amps are more expensive to maintain. Tubes aren't getting any cheaper and they aren't becoming more reliable
3. Size and Weight
4. Costs, generally speaking. Yes, there are some crazy expensive non-tube amps too.
Both can be used for basically the same things, they just have different fat (harmonic) properties. I love butter, but we mostly use margarine around the house.
I love tube amps myself, but I only gig with SS/Class D amps because
1. Who in the audience at a local bar can tell the difference? Maybe .0001 percent. Heck, we have a standing gig once a month gig at one venue and the band doesn't even notice that I hardly ever gig with the same amp twice there unless I say something, and they are like "oh, ok", lol. And on top of that, if you are playing a large venue, you may get a mic, but you always can use DI. And how much of that difference really makes it to the audience with all of the compressors and limiters and other SS technology used in PA systems? not much.
2. Tube amps are more expensive to maintain. Tubes aren't getting any cheaper and they aren't becoming more reliable
3. Size and Weight
4. Costs, generally speaking. Yes, there are some crazy expensive non-tube amps too.
I think tubes actually have gotten cheaper as now there are a few budget china manufactures making them. Of course the best NOS tubes still cost a ton even used. But part of that is because they are so reliable and sought after.
Tubes can last years when not abused, I believe I have also heard some tube amps are actually easier to repair then some SS amps which use harder to source parts in some cases.
Size and weight are both solid points but many people have been switching over to mini amp heads anyways and there are a ton of great micro tube amps that still get plenty powerful. Not to mention things like tube DI boxes.
Cost is a good point though, most fancy name brand tube amps are crazy taxed. Even budget companies like bugera still cost a solid chunk but you get a lot of oomph for the price. I have seen great deals on used tube amps though.
Tubes can last years when not abused, I believe I have also heard some tube amps are actually easier to repair then some SS amps which use harder to source parts in some cases.
Size and weight are both solid points but many people have been switching over to mini amp heads anyways and there are a ton of great micro tube amps that still get plenty powerful. Not to mention things like tube DI boxes.
Cost is a good point though, most fancy name brand tube amps are crazy taxed. Even budget companies like bugera still cost a solid chunk but you get a lot of oomph for the price. I have seen great deals on used tube amps though.
I never said that, it was someone else in response to on of my posts, I said I wasn't a tech but I did graduate from tech school 30 years ago in telecommunications (basically analog circuitry) but never worked in it.
Not necessarily have to adapt, because tube amps do sound different and sound better to some people and not so good to others, I am one of the people who like tube amps. I do have and have owned SS heads too, they just sound dry to me, I like the slop of a tube amp. When I went to tech school thirty years ago "they" were saying that tubes were on the way out and will be dead soon, very wrong, they are more plentiful nowadays, and more are made and tube circuitry is more prevalent than when I was in school. McIntosh even makes their old MC275's again.
15 years ago, tube amps were better because of the tube pre giving it a soft knee wave as opposed to squaring it off. Today, there are many hybrid amps, and now people are backtracking and saying tube amps are better because of the power tubes, not the pre. Over the past 30 years, I have spent most of that time playing through an SVT II Pro, YBA 200-2, and 1001RB-II. Based on that, I think tubes are better for some things and ss are better for others. Tubes sound bigger and more complex while maintaining kind of a generic old school tone, while ss are incredibly clean and articulate and tend to do the low lows better. Tonewise, I can make my ss sound like my tube set flat, but not the other way around. I prefer a cleaner tone, which makes my GK my fave, but for about a year and a half now, I've been primarily plugging into my Traynor. SS? Tube? I don't care. Just want to sound good and fit whatever music I'm playing.
I'm working on setting up so that I can relatively easily mix and match all of my pre and power sections. When done, I'll post my comparisons.
I'm working on setting up so that I can relatively easily mix and match all of my pre and power sections. When done, I'll post my comparisons.
Generic old school tone...LOL! Want a "non-generic old school tone"? Plug into a cab with a tweeter. Simple.
How often you need to change them relates to usage and the quality of the tube build itself. Crank your amp hard and tubes won't last as long. Don't crank your amp hard and tubes could last for years. And of course, tube quality is involved. It's gotten a lot better than it used to be in the early days of Russian/Chinese tube production. But bad ones will still get through sometimes.
This thread makes me want to dig my Sunn 200s out of the corner of my shed where it has been setting for the past 25 years and have it rebuilt.
I think that thread is very interesting as it's one of the most un-biased I've read about SS or all tube amps.
In my opinion, those who consider all tubes amps being superior has more to do with a vision of the mind. Simply because a tube looks "better" than a transistor: it's made of glass, you can the light, you can see inside how it is.....
However, I do believe those who really tried all tube amps using their ears can notice a difference a find it better for their needs/tastes. But only because they have used their ears!
I'm an SS amp guy, but my next amp will be all tube. I'm considering an Ampeg SVT 2 Pro or a CL, a Sadowsky SA200, or a Fender Super Bassman 300.
Just to give a try and make my mind once for all on the subject.
In my opinion, those who consider all tubes amps being superior has more to do with a vision of the mind. Simply because a tube looks "better" than a transistor: it's made of glass, you can the light, you can see inside how it is.....
However, I do believe those who really tried all tube amps using their ears can notice a difference a find it better for their needs/tastes. But only because they have used their ears!
I'm an SS amp guy, but my next amp will be all tube. I'm considering an Ampeg SVT 2 Pro or a CL, a Sadowsky SA200, or a Fender Super Bassman 300.
Just to give a try and make my mind once for all on the subject.
