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Tube preamp heads: Gimmick??

No sense in paying for something you can't hear the difference with. Class D has come a long way, but still has quite a different feel and response. Personally, I prefer the sound of toroidal transformer's used with tube preamps to an all class D design. I haven't played a tube pre/class D hybrid to comment, but I have read good things about the Noble 1000W. The specs look good on it.
 
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Anyone that understands this better than me, please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it seems to me that the whole deal of putting 1 to 3 tubes in the preamp section of a class D amp like many manufacturers are doing, is little more than a gimmick.

I've tested a few of these tube preamp head's compared to just solid state head's with no tubes at all and I haven't found much of a difference.

Recently I tried out the GK MB500 Fusion (3 tubes in preamp) against the Aguilar TH500 which has no tubes and I found the GK didn't do much for me but damn the TH500 was meaty, ballsy & Tubey.

Furthermore I see some companies trying to further mislead possibly unaware consumers by lighting the tubes with LEDs to further enhance the "Tube Experience".
One of these companies is Bugera but I'm not surprised after seeing their far fetched wattage ratings that they claim as well.

Do you guys agree or are there class D head's with preamp tubes that really get a more tube like sound.
I've tried the Markbass heads of this type and also was not dazzled enough to understand paying more for this feature.

Thanks.

Mbart: I totally agree with you that some amps have a "token tube" (typically a starved plate design) for marketing purposes. Gimmick? Yes!!! (IMO)

But some (not all) preamps with one or more tubes are the real deal. Focusing just on preamps, I have owned the following:

Aguilar DB680 tube preamp
Ampeg SVP-Pro tube preamp
BBE BMax-T tube preamp
Fender TBP-1 tube preamp
Kern IP-777 tube preamp
JuleAmps Monique tube preamp
Alembic F-1X tube preamp
Arkham Zephyr tube preamp (this is the one I currently own)

Based solely on my experience and non-scientific opinion of tone, I have found that my ears have always *MUCH* preferred preamps that feed high voltage to the V1 tube. My Arkham Zephyr only has one tube in it (it's fed 300 volts), and it is the best (and tubiest sounding) preamp I have ever owned. Contrast that with the Ampeg SVP-Pro preamp that I had a long time ago, which I believe had five tubes in it, and it was just "okay" sounding (IMO/IME). So, in my opinion and experience, the *number* of tubes means zilch. What matters is how the designer designed the circuit.

I'm not saying that 300v will automatically equal good tone. I'm just saying that out of all the preamps I have owned, the ones that sounded most pleasing to my ears were the ones that fed 300v to the first (and sometimes "only") tube in the circuit. But it's not just the voltage, but the overall circuit design as well! :thumbsup:

All IMO/IME. YMMV. ;)
 
Anyone that understands this better than me, please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it seems to me that the whole deal of putting 1 to 3 tubes in the preamp section of a class D amp like many manufacturers are doing, is little more than a gimmick.

I've tested a few of these tube preamp head's compared to just solid state head's with no tubes at all and I haven't found much of a difference.

Recently I tried out the GK MB500 Fusion (3 tubes in preamp) against the Aguilar TH500 which has no tubes and I found the GK didn't do much for me but damn the TH500 was meaty, ballsy & Tubey.

Furthermore I see some companies trying to further mislead possibly unaware consumers by lighting the tubes with LEDs to further enhance the "Tube Experience".
One of these companies is Bugera but I'm not surprised after seeing their far fetched wattage ratings that they claim as well.

Do you guys agree or are there class D head's with preamp tubes that really get a more tube like sound.
I've tried the Markbass heads of this type and also was not dazzled enough to understand paying more for this feature.

Thanks.
Anything made by Aguilar and GK are going to be about as different as you can get. If you love the Aggie, I can see why you wouldn't like the GK, and that has nothing to do with tubes.
 
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The indicator on one of my favorite pedals shifts pseudo-randomly between red, blue, green, and yellow. Doesn't make the pedal sound any different but I think it looks cool. Limited edition, Dr Scientist Stained Glassberator.

View attachment 2899782

First thought that came to my mind while looking at the picture is Partridge Family. I did not get any thoughts on stain glass until I read what you posted.
 
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The use of tubes as a design element has a lot to do with what the designer feels best captures his intent. That doesn't always mean that a tube is used to create an "excess of tone or feel" but sometimes just a little bit can go a long way.

It's a bit like cooking, some folks like a straight ahead bold, in your face, knock you upside the head flavor palate and others prefer a more laid back, refined, less pushy set of flavor, and don't like being smacked upside the head. It't up to the designers to develop products that fit all players and this rarely means one model or one approach.

As a practical example of this, the Shuttles were more laid back, subtle, refined, polite, whereas the Streamliner was much more an in your face tube approach. We had plenty of players in both camps, and the Stteamliner did not work for many players who found the Shuttle and Shuttlemax more to their liking. That doesn't make either player wrong, simply different.
Thank you Aged Horse. I wish more people would view selection of equipment as having different tastes as opposed to better or worse.
 
I think it’s frequently a gimmick for marketing, in lower priced amps, in an attempt to leverage the word “tube.” As agedhorse said, it is a design element, and the design intent is important, and it isn’t always to emulate a full tube head inside a compact hybrid enclosure. However, boutique builders like Demeter and Jule have made very impressive hybrid amps. Some more mainstream (less boutique) builders have also had success; Mesa’s Walkabout, various Genz heads, etc.
 
The advantage of a tube front end / solid state amp is that now you have the aggravation of dealing with tubes instead of a steady all solid state amp, but you save a fortune in that you only buy preamp tubes very occasionally instead of that plus spending LOTS of money on a rack of 6L6's if you had an all-tube amp.

Simple, innit ?
 
In generic tube pre-amplifiers there are usually only 1 – 2 gain stages that contribute to any apparent ”tubeness”. Rest of the tube circuitry is basically “transparent” amplification for purposes such as gain recovery, increasing signal-to-noise ratio, “buffering”, etc. You wouldn’t notice a difference to solid-state circuit.

Given that, IMO, the hybrid preamps with just 1 – 2 tubes are not “gimmicks”. Or at least not necessarily. A single dual triode already provides 2 gain stages, enough to put the tube in all places of the signal path where it counts. If two are used we can use four gain stages, and you hardly find more used from an “all tube” preamp either. So why is this a “gimmick”? I can see gimmickness of things like Eden’s cathode follower input stage, or Carvin’s cathode follower “tube signal path” in general – tube circuits that virtually do nothing meaningful or even audible! But just employing a seemingly small amount of tubes is not a gimmick in its own right. At least there is a potential to use them meaningfully. e.g. You only need a single 12AX7 to construct the legendary Fender / Alembic preamp in its entirety!

Yes, LEDs are nowadays fitted to tube equipment for enhanced “tubeness effect”. Tube equipment nowadays needs to fulfil our expectations of “visual image” of tube equipment – as much as it needs to fulfil our expectations of “audible image” of tube equipment. There is equally much sense in using the most linear amplifying device ever (a triode) to introduce ridiculously great amounts of non-linearity (“tube sound”) as there is illuminating tubes with LEDs because their filaments are too dull to give apparent visual image of tubeness. Same thing why we need to see those glowing tubes in the first place, instead of closing all that boring stuff inside the chassis and forgetting it even exists. (Which was how tube gear was designed in the golden eare of tube gear). Let’s just face it: Today visuality counts big time in overall “tube experience”!

I remember when the LED rage started from someone discovering that Behringer had fitted yellow LEDs behind the tubes in their rack gear (why not, the tubes where aesthetically put to show in the front panel to begin with). Because it was Behringer (mic preamp I think) it was naturally initially assumed that the tubes do nothing and are there just for show. No one - of course and as is usual - bothered to test anything. This was just the initial assumption, which almost everyone believed without a second thought. Ironically, that very same Behringer gear implements one of the most clever implementations of a tube circuit I’ve seen in a generic “hybrid” preamp. Nope, not just a token common cathode amp but a complete “push-pull” circuit, which’s symmetry user could manually adjust to vary between “even harmonic” and “odd harmonic” distortions. Pretty clever idea indeed and proved to never judge a book by its cover!

Then we have that issue of employing “starved plate voltage” circuits. When tubes are used just to introduce distortion I fail to see the problem. Yes, high plate voltages are ideal if we want to operate the tube in its most linear range at highest headroom possible. Did you catch that? “Most linear”. “Highest headroom”. Sounds pretty lame for anything that relates to distortion. Yep, it’s a golden rule, which applies to “Hi-Fi” tube design but has little practice in designing distortion effects. Reduced plate voltage, on the other hand, is good for that purpose since it reduces headroom and introduces greater amounts of non-linearity in general. Given how much plate voltage reduction is utilized to day in (particularly guitar) tube amps and circuits I fail to see shy “starved plate” circuits have such a bad reputation. Anyone owning an Ampeg SVT3-PRO? Is the “Tube Gain” control a useless feature, as it is nothing but a variable “starved plate” circuit?

But, IMO, it could be argued though, if preamp tubes in general are “gimmicky”. There’s nothing they do that couldn’t be - to point of incredible accuracy - done with proper design and solid-state technology as well. Even the tube "power amp" -tone with SS is nailed to close perfection by many manufacturers. Naturally it finds less use in bass amplification than it does in guitar amps. Bass power amps still benefit from higher headroom, less distortion, and "tighter" characteristics overall.
 
I don't have as much experience with this in the bass realm, as I prefer a cleaner sound. With guitar however, I really don't care as much for pushing the preamp distortion. I typically run a low wattage amp, with the preamp gain really low and the amp volume way up to push the power section and get that natural compression. For me that's by far the best sound. The next person my love the sound of the preamp section cranked. There really isn't a right way across the board, it comes down to what sound you like.
 
Those music man amps were only made for short period of time, and they are hybrids. I can’t think of any other significant amp that used solid state pre and tube power amp. Those were decent amps for a clean guitar sound. I would say that most of where the “tube sound” comes from is the tube power amp tubes. The hybrids with solid state power sound nothing like tube amps.

Some amps by Dynacord (beginning of the 70ies) come to mind.
 
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Anyone that understands this better than me, please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it seems to me that the whole deal of putting 1 to 3 tubes in the preamp section of a class D amp like many manufacturers are doing, is little more than a gimmick.

I've tested a few of these tube preamp head's compared to just solid state head's with no tubes at all and I haven't found much of a difference.

Recently I tried out the GK MB500 Fusion (3 tubes in preamp) against the Aguilar TH500 which has no tubes and I found the GK didn't do much for me but damn the TH500 was meaty, ballsy & Tubey.

Furthermore I see some companies trying to further mislead possibly unaware consumers by lighting the tubes with LEDs to further enhance the "Tube Experience".
One of these companies is Bugera but I'm not surprised after seeing their far fetched wattage ratings that they claim as well.

Do you guys agree or are there class D head's with preamp tubes that really get a more tube like sound.
I've tried the Markbass heads of this type and also was not dazzled enough to understand paying more for this feature.

Thanks.
Nothing sounds or feels like a tube amp. Not to say they can't sound great, but not the same. That being said, I retired my SVT and use a PF800. Nice, sounds good, no one notices but me, but not the same.
 
In generic tube pre-amplifiers there are usually only 1 – 2 gain stages that contribute to any apparent ”tubeness”. Rest of the tube circuitry is basically “transparent” amplification for purposes such as gain recovery, increasing signal-to-noise ratio, “buffering”, etc. You wouldn’t notice a difference to solid-state circuit.

Given that, IMO, the hybrid preamps with just 1 – 2 tubes are not “gimmicks”. Or at least not necessarily. A single dual triode already provides 2 gain stages, enough to put the tube in all places of the signal path where it counts. If two are used we can use four gain stages, and you hardly find more used from an “all tube” preamp either. So why is this a “gimmick”? I can see gimmickness of things like Eden’s cathode follower input stage, or Carvin’s cathode follower “tube signal path” in general – tube circuits that virtually do nothing meaningful or even audible! But just employing a seemingly small amount of tubes is not a gimmick in its own right. At least there is a potential to use them meaningfully. e.g. You only need a single 12AX7 to construct the legendary Fender / Alembic preamp in its entirety!

Yes, LEDs are nowadays fitted to tube equipment for enhanced “tubeness effect”. Tube equipment nowadays needs to fulfil our expectations of “visual image” of tube equipment – as much as it needs to fulfil our expectations of “audible image” of tube equipment. There is equally much sense in using the most linear amplifying device ever (a triode) to introduce ridiculously great amounts of non-linearity (“tube sound”) as there is illuminating tubes with LEDs because their filaments are too dull to give apparent visual image of tubeness. Same thing why we need to see those glowing tubes in the first place, instead of closing all that boring stuff inside the chassis and forgetting it even exists. (Which was how tube gear was designed in the golden eare of tube gear). Let’s just face it: Today visuality counts big time in overall “tube experience”!

I remember when the LED rage started from someone discovering that Behringer had fitted yellow LEDs behind the tubes in their rack gear (why not, the tubes where aesthetically put to show in the front panel to begin with). Because it was Behringer (mic preamp I think) it was naturally initially assumed that the tubes do nothing and are there just for show. No one - of course and as is usual - bothered to test anything. This was just the initial assumption, which almost everyone believed without a second thought. Ironically, that very same Behringer gear implements one of the most clever implementations of a tube circuit I’ve seen in a generic “hybrid” preamp. Nope, not just a token common cathode amp but a complete “push-pull” circuit, which’s symmetry user could manually adjust to vary between “even harmonic” and “odd harmonic” distortions. Pretty clever idea indeed and proved to never judge a book by its cover!

Then we have that issue of employing “starved plate voltage” circuits. When tubes are used just to introduce distortion I fail to see the problem. Yes, high plate voltages are ideal if we want to operate the tube in its most linear range at highest headroom possible. Did you catch that? “Most linear”. “Highest headroom”. Sounds pretty lame for anything that relates to distortion. Yep, it’s a golden rule, which applies to “Hi-Fi” tube design but has little practice in designing distortion effects. Reduced plate voltage, on the other hand, is good for that purpose since it reduces headroom and introduces greater amounts of non-linearity in general. Given how much plate voltage reduction is utilized to day in (particularly guitar) tube amps and circuits I fail to see shy “starved plate” circuits have such a bad reputation. Anyone owning an Ampeg SVT3-PRO? Is the “Tube Gain” control a useless feature, as it is nothing but a variable “starved plate” circuit?

But, IMO, it could be argued though, if preamp tubes in general are “gimmicky”. There’s nothing they do that couldn’t be - to point of incredible accuracy - done with proper design and solid-state technology as well. Even the tube "power amp" -tone with SS is nailed to close perfection by many manufacturers. Naturally it finds less use in bass amplification than it does in guitar amps. Bass power amps still benefit from higher headroom, less distortion, and "tighter" characteristics overall.

Great post, but I got to tell you, as gimmicky as you say the preamp tube is in my Eden Gear maybe , the sum total is a very warm clear sound. To your point however, I also have 2 Eden Nemisis combos that don’t have tubes (MOSFET, what ever that is) and are equally as warm.
 
Anyone who has objectively spent significant time with a variety of tube and transistor amps knows that while some generalities of tone are often consistent, there are no hard and fast rules as to what one can expect. Tube preamps are hardly 'gimmicks' in many amps as well as studio preamps, etc. At the same time, sure there are many consumer level products where a vacuum tube is merely aesthetic.

At the end of the day play what works for YOU. It's so silly to me when players prejudge based on topology or specifications. That said, there are times one can predict some performance characteristics,... but it's probably more pragmatic to keep an open mind.

I have a fully solid state Aguilar Tonehammer that I would go along with sounding "tubey". I also have an all-tube purist Mesa Buster that could 'fool' many as a transistor amp.

There are no rules for the most part.
 
Tubes are not particularly easy to design with so I am not surprised if some designers fail in their efforts to make a good tube preamp. Another thing is that one of the features of a tube that listeners like is their second harmonic distortion. Tubes amplify as cleanly as solid state at low levels so if you really want to hear that second harmonic distortion you have to be driving the tube at a high enough level to produce it. It may take quite a bit of fiddling with amp gains and instrument volumes to maximize the tube-like sound of a hybrid or even a full on tube amp. Other things that guitarists like about tube amps depend on power supply sag and output transformer saturation and those features virtually require a full on tube amp.

Now, I don't use tube amps at all so I am saying none of this from direct personal experience. But as an electrical engineer I am fairly confident that most hybrid amps are capable of giving you SOME of the characteristics of a full tube amp but certainly not all. And some designers undoubtedly make it easier than others to dial in the maximum tubey goodness that their creations are capable of. At the end of the day, however, if you are after the full tube experience or just a subset of it that requires the power supply or output transformer to be driven to their limits then obviously only a full tube amp is going to satisfy you.
 
I am not sure if its a "gimmick" but I do believe its as much in the implementation as anything else. I played a Fender Bassman 800 and 100T through the same cab and had a hard time hearing the difference in GC. Maybe it would have showed up in a quieter environment or one where I could really crank it up. I bought the 800 for reasons other than tone. I also have an Orange AD200B and it is far an away the best tonal options between the 2. The clean signal of each is very tubey and similar, but when the overdrive aspect is considered, the Orange wins in all categories. So, if you play mainly clean, I think some hybrids can do what you want. However, if you want a little dirt rubbed on the tone, then all tubes is required in my opinion. I would go so far as to say, in the pursuit of a variety of tone, if I had just bought the Orange first, I would have saved a lot of time and money.
 
Tube pre sections have always been a selling point. Whether it is better than an ss pre has to do with the circuit design, not merely the presence of the tube.

It's all about marketing.

The power tubes in the power section is primarily where the 'tube head sound' comes from.

Much of it comes down to the philosophy of the engineers and designers. Some are simply into all tube designs, driving only ceramic magnet drivers.

But the growth in the industry is with Class D (with or without a tube pre) and neo-drivers. Small, lightweight, and economically priced are the rules today.
 
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This is different from what you're talking about, but I run a Jule Monique into a Crest ProLite 2.0 and there's absolutely a noticeable (if subtle) difference in feel, compression, and depth to my tone. Granted, a Monique is waaaay more designed that many tube preamp sections of hybrid class D amps