Tube preamp heads: Gimmick??

[JimmyM]

This is different from what you're talking about, but I run a Jule Monique into a Crest ProLite 2.0 and there's absolutely a noticeable (if subtle) difference in feel, compression, and depth to my tone. Granted, a Monique is waaaay more designed that many tube preamp sections of hybrid class D amps

Jule knows what he's doing

 

[JohnnyChatter]

My Traynor Db800h has 1 tube in the preamp and I can turn it on or off as I please. So it can be a hybrid head or completely solid state. The basic tone is the same but I always have that tube on because it sounds so much better. I had my friend blind test it on me to make sure it wasn’t mental. We changed the settings a bunch and all that fun stuff without me looking.

 

[BunchyMutt]

Jule knows what he's doing

amen to that

 

[Altitude]

I have an MBFusion and a Mesa D-800.

The MBFusion has a tube front-end but probably isn't really supposed to sound like a "tube" amp.

The D-800 is solid state but has a slightly burly approach anyway, which probably speaks to @agedhorse comments about design intent, since he designed it.

Both are nice sounding amps. I do think the MBFusion has a slightly breathy characteristic in low notes, a very subtle absence of immediacy that sounds to my ears like it would have to come from the tube section. It's still a bright amp overall. The Mesa is a little quicker.

Gimmick? Nah, just a design decision. The LEDs in the Bugera are a gimmick.

 

[gt96g]

I have two class D amps with tube pre-amps. I personally like what it does but that being said, I have played on all solid state amps that sound great as well.

 

[JimiLL]

Good point and overlooked by the bulk of my previous post. I’m never mad at having a tube condition my sound at any point in the signal path. I use my Markbass compressore despite its bulk and how much pedalboard real estate it takes. I like many things about the compressore but in part I use it because I like the sound of tube compression that just adds a hint of warmth to the tone. And like bluebass mentioned the tube sound can be good for clean tone or for compression.

I do think the difference is much more subtle in those applications as opposed to when listening to overdrive or breakup where tube sound makes a bigger differance to my ear. As much as I like my tube compressor I might not be able to tell the differance in a blind (or should I say deaf) test of tube vs. transistor compression.

Can anybody justify the LED lighting up the tube thing as anymore than a gimmick? If the idea is it looks cool and not to fool people into thinking it’s the tube glowing, is it presented as such?

I’m still waiting for any manufacturer to insinuate that it does affect tone. Of course they wouldn’t, because it’s nonsense. It’s there to look cool, and that I think it does

 

[hennessybass]

I think that the OP is right to an extent that pre-amp tubes are, in some cases, being used as a marketing thing... but they can still be an integral part of that amp design and be highlighted in the marketing.
I've played a variety of amps over the years and some are great and many are not. IME, it doesn't have much to do with the fact that there is a tube in circuit or not, and has everything to do with the overall amp design, and how all the parts work together. The longer I've been at it, the more I think you have to take each amp individually and not make generalizations about how a particular component is going to effect that amp.

 

[LowActionHero]

Maybe you should try a hybrid with dual preamps, 1 mosfet and 1 tube, so you can get a better feel for the differences that tubes make. . /QUOTE]

That's my Yorkville XS800H, but honestly, I don't hear a HUGE difference between the tube and FET. It's still kinda new to me so I've been running it like my old rig and not pushing it like it probably wants. I do leave it on tube mostly, cuz i can hear a slight difference, just not the real obvious improvement i thought it would. May be time to experiment!

Also, i tend to run mostly clean and without a footswitch i control my dirt from the pedalboard.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I bought another tube to swap and see what that does.

 

[swarfrat]

I keep mulling over a 2 tube amp. SS input stage - no point in wasting tubes on undistorted stages. So you get 2 clippable class A triode stages, buffer & flip, and feed that to a push-pull 12AT7. Then it gets fun.

Your controls are:
1) Preamp gain
2) Power amp gain
3) A balance control between the inverted and uninverted sides of the push-pull section. Call this knob 'Symmetry'. At the far left, you have single ended clipping. At the far right, you have push-pull.

Yeah, it's 3 knobs. But nobody else that I know of is doing push-pull clipped tube preamps. Shove that into a monster class D power amp and voila - 5lb SVT

 

[Jefenator]

I wouldn't necessarily begrudge some "fake" LED back lighting. That is actually nothing new - my buddy has a vintage Ampeg B-12 flip top with the logo on the plexiglass that lights up from a bulb underneath. Sure it's a gimmick but it looks freaking cool. The overall amp is freaking cool (heavy & underpowered by modern standards but the tone is sweeeet).
But any amp still needs to sound good - all the groovy visual effects in the world won't count for anything whatsoever if there is no sonic mojo to be had.

 

[Sixgunn]

I have absolutely no interest in tube amps for bass and absolutely no interest in SS for guitar

 

[agedhorse]

I keep mulling over a 2 tube amp. SS input stage - no point in wasting tubes on undistorted stages. So you get 2 clippable class A triode stages, buffer & flip, and feed that to a push-pull 12AT7. Then it gets fun.

Your controls are:
1) Preamp gain
2) Power amp gain
3) A balance control between the inverted and uninverted sides of the push-pull section. Call this knob 'Symmetry'. At the far left, you have single ended clipping. At the far right, you have push-pull.

Yeah, it's 3 knobs. But nobody else that I know of is doing push-pull clipped tube preamps. Shove that into a monster class D power amp and voila - 5lb SVT

If it was only that easy...

 

[Jim C]

I can only offer personal experience.
SVP-CL preamp into a class D amp sounds very tubey to me.
I had a GK MB800 and trade for a 800 Fusion.
They sound different and I like the fusion slightly better.
It does not sound that tubey to me at all.

Not class D but my recent ABM 500 purchase with only 1 tube in the preamp sounds very tubey if the drive is set at 11:00.
Not distorted but slight compression, more harmonics and a warmer sound.
One could say that this slight drive is distortion as it changes the inherent amp tone.
Come to think of it, this "tube sound" could probably be considered in most tube offerings.
Not that it is bad; I wonder how much the wave form changes in a SVT with a pile of tubes (before power tube break up)

 

[DavC]

doesn't the majority of that ' tube sound ' come from the Power tube section of the tube amps .. ?

seems to me , most hybrid pre-tube amps don't have enough volts going thru the tube to do much .. ??

i have a 'tube warmer ' type pre-amp ' that runs enough juice thru the tube to push it into distortion , but going past just a little bit-o-grit with a preamp type tube , doesn't sound real great ( to me ) YMMV

 

[blubass]

I keep mulling over a 2 tube amp. SS input stage - no point in wasting tubes on undistorted stages. So you get 2 clippable class A triode stages, buffer & flip, and feed that to a push-pull 12AT7. Then it gets fun.

Your controls are:
1) Preamp gain
2) Power amp gain
3) A balance control between the inverted and uninverted sides of the push-pull section. Call this knob 'Symmetry'. At the far left, you have single ended clipping. At the far right, you have push-pull.

Yeah, it's 3 knobs. But nobody else that I know of is doing push-pull clipped tube preamps. Shove that into a monster class D power amp and voila - 5lb SVT

There are plenty of engineers who could happily rest on their laurels if they created a small and lightweight, convincing tube amp. That is game changing to say the least. Unfortunately typing words on a keyboard is much easier than engineering.

as a parallel to that end, I've been involved with in-depth discussions with brilliant university students of automotive engineering and some current leading developers involving the next technologies to replace gasoline engines. The only thing they can agree on is that it is becoming extremely hard to meet the demands that the Government is putting on the automotive world; because all they do is write stuff down and pass legislation. Unfortunately it's up to the engineers to actually make that possible.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Tina Weymouth on Pycho Killer. Killer tone, a bit of crunch and compression. She used an Acoustic all ss head for that.

 

[JimmyM]

doesn't the majority of that ' tube sound ' come from the Power tube section of the tube amps .. ?

The power section definitely can make a huge difference between what sounds truly tubey and what doesn't, but the preamp is no slouch, either. Of course I'd rather have the whole enchilada, but given a choice between preamp tubes or no tubes at all, I'll take preamp tubes.

And BTW, to everyone in general, tubes aren't just about distortion. The entire reason the SVT was invented was to be able to supply 300w of CLEAN tubey goodness to the player. The idea that they're only good if you like distortion is a myth created by bozos on the internet who never touched a tube amp in their lives.

 

[agedhorse]

The SVT wasn't invented specifically to provide "clean tubey goodness", it was done because at that time it was really the only practical way to deliver 300 watts RMS, as solid state simply wasn't up to the task (and wasn't for quite a while actually).

 

[Jim C]

You know you are old when you remember the first SVT's being released...
49 years ago!!

 

[DigitalMan]

I don’t think any generalization works. I think there is a spectrum of tube products that range from gimmick to design center excellence. Of those implementations, there is an unrelated spectrum of sound that causes each of us as individuals to swipe left or right. Tubes are a tool in the designers tool kit. Amps and preamps are part of the bass players tool kit. I can only evaluate the end product as a bass player.

I will say however that sometimes products that appear to be on the gimmick end of the spectrum also tend to have a harder path to credibility.