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Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls

#121
Ok, I was exaggerating in my post because I was disappointed in not being able to get the results I wanted; I don't mean literally inaudible, just that it takes a lot more tweaking to get to kind-of where I'm happy.

My whole approach to this has been predicated on suspecting user-error, but after trying it with a couple of micros, a tube amp (Ashdown CTM300, forgot to mention it), and a big power amp, I'm feeling like I've tried a lot of things, both amp-wise and settings-wise to no avail. Maybe that the HPF and VMT helped suggests that I really do like the natural highpassing and speaker breakup of less capable speakers?

The 15/6 definitely sounds different to the 15 sub, so the mid is doing something, at least. If I take it apart and biamp it, what am I listening for?

I didn't know about blocking the port, seems weird that you can do that with such an exacting design (to a layman, to be sure). Please tell me more about it (or direct me somewhere where I can read about it).

Like I said, I've been coming at this from the angle that I was doing something wrong, but if everything looks right on paper and I still don't like it, maybe it's just not for me. Not the conclusion I was expecting, but possible.
 
#122
Wolffgang said:
Ok, I was exaggerating in my post because I was disappointed in not being able to get the results I wanted; I don't mean literally inaudible, just that it takes a lot more tweaking to get to kind-of where I'm happy.

My whole approach to this has been predicated on suspecting user-error, but after trying it with a couple of micros, a tube amp (Ashdown CTM300, forgot to mention it), and a big power amp, I'm feeling like I've tried a lot of things, both amp-wise and settings-wise to no avail. Maybe that the HPF and VMT helped suggests that I really do like the natural highpassing and speaker breakup of less capable speakers?

The 15/6 definitely sounds different to the 15 sub, so the mid is doing something, at least. If I take it apart and biamp it, what am I listening for?

I didn't know about blocking the port, seems weird that you can do that with such an exacting design (to a layman, to be sure). Please tell me more about it (or direct me somewhere where I can read about it).

Like I said, I've been coming at this from the angle that I was doing something wrong, but if everything looks right on paper and I still don't like it, maybe it's just not for me. Not the conclusion I was expecting, but possible.
Click to expand...

Have you thought about taking with Dave Green about it on his forum? That would be one of my first steps. The ports CAN be blocked, and there are even some 'plans' for how to do it. Yes, it changes the tone, but it is doable.

Again, I've been playing a 15sub+15/6 setup in a band setting in numerous venues from outdoors to small clubs and its got the ability to crush. In some venues its had the volume to be louder and more present than the PA. It also is easier to hear from different parts of the stage than any 4x10 or other setup I've had.
 
#123
Wolffgang said:
I didn't know about blocking the port, seems weird that you can do that with such an exacting design (to a layman, to be sure). Please tell me more about it (or direct me somewhere where I can read about it).
Click to expand...

Blocking off half of the port area results is a significant reduction in the tuning frequency. I think the 15/6 starts out tuned to about 45 Hz, and the new tuning frequency would be down around 33 Hz. This will cause the low end to start rolling off higher up, but more gently, resulting in a "tighter" sound. You also lose port area, but the air velocity requirements for bass guitar are reduced as well with the lower tuning frequency, such that I seriously doubt you'd be able to make the cab chuff.

My cabs use round flared ports that can be easily plugged with a plumber's expandable test plug, so my customers have a fair amount of accumulated experience with port plugging. They find it useful on a boomy stage/in a boomy room.

I don't know what the preferred technique would be to plug a rectangular port; greenboy is no doubt more experienced there than I am.

All that being said, reducing the tuning frequency won't actually increase the low midrange energy; rather, it will decrease the net low bass energy, relative to which the low midrange energy will now be more prominent.
 
#125
Wolffgang said:
The 15/6 definitely sounds different to the 15 sub, so the mid is doing something, at least. If I take it apart and biamp it, what am I listening for?
Click to expand...

A sound you like more than what you currently have. A classic troubleshooting method is using a known good replacement, and for some of us at least, biamping is easier and/or cheaper than building a whole new passive crossover. In my own cabs I often do most of the crossover R&D electronically, then port over to a passive crossover once I've established a baseline I like.

Wolffgang said:
I didn't know about blocking the port, seems weird that you can do that with such an exacting design (to a layman, to be sure). Please tell me more about it (or direct me somewhere where I can read about it).
Click to expand...

Dave Green has posted many possible workable mods to the basic design, and hinted at many others that are better left to people with deep understanding of all the ramifications. His fEARful designs are carefully considered compromises, not end-of the world, unchanging bedrock things. His own website is the default place to read about that, but the early fEARful build/design/discussion threads here also contain a lot of wealth if you are the patient sort -- given lots of redundancy, rancor, jocular BS, etc. to wade through.
 
#126
Passinwind said:
A sound you like more than what you currently have. A classic troubleshooting method is using a known good replacement, and for some of us at least, biamping is easier and/or cheaper than building a whole new passive crossover. In my own cabs I often do most of the crossover R&D electronically, then port over to a passive crossover once I've established a baseline I like.



Dave Green has posted many possible workable mods to the basic design, and hinted at many others that are better left to people with deep understanding of all the ramifications. His fEARful designs are carefully considered compromises, not end-of the world, unchanging bedrock things. His own website is the default place to read about that, but the early fEARful build/design/discussion threads here also contain a lot of wealth if you are the patient sort -- given lots of redundancy, rancor, jocular BS, etc. to wade through.
Click to expand...


By redundancy, rancor and jocular BS, etc. you mean me, right? :bawl:

Seriously. The real hashing out of the situation and any trouble shooting should be over on Dave's message board. You'll have the designer, a number of builders and plenty of expert technical minds to help figure out what you're hearing, what you should be hearing and what the situation and options are.
 
#128
You're right, now that it's basically trouble-shooting whether everything is as it should be with the cab and its bits, this belongs over at the GB forum. I created an account over there in anticipation of this, but I was hoping it was just a matter of execution, and that the greater user volume at TB might be better for that.

I admit I haven't dug through the fEarful thread yet, might be time to do that.

I've used it with a power amp and aguilar preamp, and a markbass LMII (which I've read doesn't have a baked in eq curve), both with a 10-band on my board, but I haven't used it with a mixer. What's the role of the DI in this situation? And yes almost exclusively passive basses. Oddly, I only really liked my jazz with Hartke, and found my precisions to be very dull, whereas I liked them both with the fearful, but the precision a little more.

But yes, I think we've basically come to the end of what this thread can offer, and I should move on over to the Greenboy forums. Luckily, I snagged a good deal on a 610 locally, so I can afford to be using a different rig while still having the fEarful. I think I'm going to take a little break from it and take things back up over at the other forum.

Thanks for all the help :)
 
#130
Passinwind said:
Best of luck, hope you get what you want/need over there.

--Charlie
Click to expand...

+1

Sounds like you need a trouble shooting / operation verification process for each and every wiring/xover/driver element.

Something aint right with your cab.

Use some caution as feeding signal to a xover with a disconnected/intermittent driver load can present the equivalent of a dead short at some frequency ranges = you'll start smoking your amps.
 
#131
Had my first gig with the 6x10/Streamliner last night; it was AWESOME. The EQ... did something... Like, it felt like having 3 slave volume knobs of sorts tailored to specific frequencies. I know that's what an EQ is, but it certainly never felt like that like the fEarful, they had minimal effect on tone or volume, at least compared to this. As usual I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but it was a night and day difference in the utility of that Streamliner, at least; that head kicks ass. (It's almost like the 900-watt 4-ohm Genz Benz cab is designed to work with the 900-watt 4-ohm Genz Benz head; it's uncanny >.>)

We were playing in one of the bigger rooms around here, which I've played a few times with the fEarful stack, and each time by the end of the night its clip was on nearly solidly and I was all out of usable volume while still feeling unarticulated. This time, the clip light was still making an appearance, but I felt like I could *do* something about it with the eq, like, a small cut on the bass knob would do wonders for the headroom, for example. Again, I know this is how it's *supposed* to work, but I've been living without it (feels like it, anyway) for so long that I forgot. Probably didn't have LOT of headroom, but certainly some.

So much fun.

Over on the Greenboy forums tech-supporting the fearful now, too, will hopefully have some answers after Tuesday (the next time I can get in the studio and work with the fEarful). The builder, Joseph of JHawk Customs, even sought the thread out of his own accord, figured out it was me, emailed me about it, and is going to help (or at least keep a close eye on) the whole affair; full marks. As I said in the other forum, that's more or less the definition of excellent customer service. Hopefully I'll have two kickass rigs soon :D
 
#132
First post here…

Built my ff 15/6 a few years ago. Love the sound and high SPL. Finished a companion 15 sub last month. Have not gigged out with the combination yet. Can't wait.

Both crossovers bought from Leland.

I was reading through a few TB posts about using the 15/6 & 15 sub stacked together & noticed the tread I've summarized below.

This is the first time I've heard about a crossover "switch" in a 15/6. My cab does not have a tweeter or any kind of switch or attenuator.

Question 1: Am I missing some hardware?
Question 2: I plan on stacking the two cabs with sub on bottom. Is there a "special" crossover that I'm supposed to use when I combine the two cabs?

Thanks for your help!



Bass Guitar Forums > Amps > Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls

12-05-13, 01:35 AM Wolffgang
Taken from the invoice I got with it:

"Eminence Kappalite 3015LF & Eighteen Sound 6NM410 / Eminence APT80 / greenboy CBG crossover"

And no, it's not a phase issue, still happens with just the one cab. If anything, it's too much bottom end, in relation to the mids, anyway


12-05-13, 08:18 AM mbelue added:
** Are you using your crossover switch when using both cabs? **


12-05-2013, 09:44 AM Wolffgang said:
Not sure what you mean; the only switch of any kind (on mine, at least) is a dial that pads the tweeter. I bought it a couple of years ago, maybe the design has evolved since then? I run from head to sub, and from sub to 15/6, as instructed by the builder

12-05-2013, 09:52 AM KJung said:
There should be a switch that pads down the mid driver when using the 15/6 as a stand-alone, and then allows higher output of the mid driver to balance the top end response when adding the sub.
 
#133
If you're adding a sub you need a spdt switch on the mid crossover to unpad the mid driver. Otherwise the mid will not be able to keep up with 2 woofers.
It will require modifying the mid crossover board, cutting a hole in your 15/6 and installing a switch, and adding the wiring to connect switch to crossover.
 
#134
Just reading the instructions Leland sends you might leave some gaps in information.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Really has the best info.
Leland does a great job but it would be redundant for him to reprint everything.
 
#135
This got a bit confusing for me, since Dave Green the name of Ashdown's valve amp engineer, who presumably designed the CTM300. Am I right in presuming Greenboy is also Dave, or have I totally missed out that Dave Green amp man has a forum (didn't strike me as internet sort when I've spoken to him).
 
#138
lowsmatter said:
First post here…

Built my ff 15/6 a few years ago. ...

This is the first time I've heard about a crossover "switch" in a 15/6. My cab does not have a tweeter or any kind of switch or attenuator.

Question 1: Am I missing some hardware?
Question 2: I plan on stacking the two cabs with sub on bottom. Is there a "special" crossover that I'm supposed to use when I combine the two cabs?

Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Scroll down to the 15/6 schematic and notice the switch (labeled SPDT). If you don't have one in your cab (I don't in mine), you'll need to wire one in so you can switch between using one cab (LPad switched in to reduce mids) or 2 cabs (LPad bypassed to allow full signal to the mid driver).

Just pay very careful attention to the diagram when wiring up the switch and make sure there's a good airtight seal when mounting it.

The sub should have it's own Lowpass filter (the diagram is just below the 15/6 one) and that's all.

No extra parts (except the switch) or special crossovers required.
 
#139
Durn! I thought I'd absorbed all the knowledge & experiences on greenboy's forum. But I missed the mention of the stacking 15/6 and 15 sub as it pertains to crossovers.

I was not planning on adding a 15 sub when I built my 15/6. I guess I didn't order the correct 15/6 crossover from Leland -- which has the SPDT toggle switch option.

So I'd like to add that switch now.

Do I need to purchase the 20 ohm & 2.5 ohm resistors & add them to my mid crossover?

Must I modify the circuit board to install the new components?

Where do most builders mount the toggle switch?

Thanks for your patience & support!
 
#140
continuing the mid crossover thread... I've read some forum thread debates about the "correct" polarity of the 6NM410 mid-range.

I believe I used the diagram that Leland sent me, which said: "NOTE: + from board goes to - on mid, and - on board goes to + on mid." Is that still valid? I need to open up the 15/6 & check. Comments?
 

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