Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls

[mbelue]

Taken from the invoice I got with it:

"Eminence Kappalite 3015LF & Eighteen Sound 6NM410 / Eminence APT80 / greenboy CBG crossover"

And no, it's not a phase issue, still happens with just the one cab. If anything, it's too much bottom end, in relation to the mids, anyway

Are you using your crossover switch when using both cabs?

 

[Wolffgang]

Thanks for the info, Duke. I'm hoping I can get this to where I want it without doing anything that drastic, but I appreciate the offer of assistance

Downunder, exactly what I'm going to do. Exactly what I thought I was doing (ineffectually, clearly), hence all the resultant gasbagging and pestering you ridiculously helpful people for answers that are seeming a lot simpler than I realised.

 

[KJung]

Thanks for the info, Duke. I'm hoping I can get this to where I want it without doing anything that drastic, but I appreciate the offer of assistance

Downunder, exactly what I'm going to do. Exactly what I thought I was doing (ineffectually, clearly), hence all the resultant gasbagging and pestering you ridiculously helpful people for answers that are seeming a lot simpler than I realised.

Your head is definitely PART of the issue (as I mentioned early on... although for many, that Streamliner/fEARful is the bee's knees). You will never be able to hi pass and EQ an LF loaded cab to sound like that Hartke that you like.... period That being said, with a tighter head with more EQ control, like the Shuttle Max 9.2, you might get close enough to make you happy. I would, quite frankly, doubt it. Again, not good versus bad, but just very, very different.

 

[Foz]

You will never be able to hi pass and EQ an LF loaded cab to sound like that Hartke that you like...

If that were true you couldn't mic a mid-foward / lite-in-the-lows cab and run it through a capable PA to produce an accurate reproduction out front - because of those pesky subwoofers!

But obviously that isn't true.

You can't get a cab to reproduce a tonal pallet outside its capabilities - but absent extreme anomalies* altered frequency response curves inside those parameters are trivial to achieve with a full function EQ circuit. Having low frequency capability in a cab stack in no way requires that the lows be hyped.

*example: a phase null between a woof and a mid driver due to poor xover design.

===

If anything, it's too much bottom end, in relation to the mids, anyway

Just buy the Aggie toob amp already fer christsakes and quit looking for excuses.

Or... buy that Art PC-II you were looking at [or similar channel strip with a full featured EQ] and slap it on top of a real man's power amp and twiddle in the tone of your dreams using the adjustable HPF and the parametric mids.

 

[KJung]

If that were true you couldn't mic a mid-foward / lite-in-the-lows cab and run it through a capable PA to produce an accurate reproduction out front - because of those pesky subwoofers!

But obviously that isn't true.

You can't get a cab to reproduce a tonal pallet outside its capabilities - but absent extreme anomalies* altered frequency response curves inside those parameters are trivial to achieve with a full function EQ circuit. Having low frequency capability in a cab stack in no way requires that the lows be hyped.

*example: a phase null between a woof and a mid driver due to poor xover design.

===



Just buy the Aggie toob amp already fer christsakes and quit looking for excuses.

Or... buy that Art PC-II you were looking at [or similar channel strip with a full featured EQ] and slap it on top of a real man's power amp and twiddle in the tone of your dreams using the adjustable HPF and the parametric mids.

What you are describing is 'amp and speaker modeling' (which would be the electronic correlate to close mic'ing a cab through a PA). That involves quite a bit more than EQ, but can be done, especially given that the traditionally horrible sounding modeling software/hardware is getting better by the month.

Also, remember that most well designed PA"s have subs, true midrange sections, and then upper midrange/treble boxes, expertly crossed over (usually electronically). That is different than putting a driver designed for subwoofer applications into a relatively small, higher tuned box, and then adding a small mid driver to cover the top end. Quite a different thing there. Again, not a 'good versus bad' thing at all, just a 'different thing'.

Much easier to get a rig that sounds like you want it to sound IMO and IME

 

[Wolffgang]

Are you using your crossover switch when using both cabs?

Not sure what you mean; the only switch of any kind (on mine, at least) is a dial that pads the tweeter. I bought it a couple of years ago, maybe the design has evolved since then? I run from head to sub, and from sub to 15/6, as instructed by the builder

 

[Wolffgang]

What you are describing is 'amp and speaker modeling' (which would be the electronic correlate to close mic'ing a cab through a PA). That involves quite a bit more than EQ, but can be done, especially given that the traditionally horrible sounding modeling software/hardware is getting better by the month.

Also, remember that most well designed PA"s have subs, true midrange sections, and then upper midrange/treble boxes, expertly crossed over (usually electronically). That is different than putting a driver designed for subwoofer applications into a relatively small, higher tuned box, and then adding a small mid driver to cover the top end. Quite a different thing there. Again, not a 'good versus bad' thing at all, just a 'different thing'.

Much easier to get a rig that sounds like you want it to sound IMO and IME

Yeah the whole mic'd cab into FOH scenario is part of what made me thing this might be possible, the fearful essentially being/emulating a PA and all. Although I've always wondered what else is involved in cab modelling beyond being a glorified post-EQ, do you know?

If I have to buy a new cab, that's what I'll do, but I figure I may as well explore my options and draw on the vast wealth of Talkbass knowledge first. Well, that's half true; if I lived in America, I'd already own another cab, but the fact that I could buy a cab off the American classifieds here, have a reshipper send it to me for nearly the same price as the cab, and *still* be paying less than I'd pay here, not to mention the much greater selection, is stopping me. Besides, once I get the fearful how I like it, I may like it more than a 4x10. I like being able to produce 'true' bass, I like having a cab that I basically don't have to worry about hurting, and I like the upper-register clarity for higher phrases. Hopefully, I just haven't learned to use the damned thing right yet.

 

[KJung]

Not sure what you mean; the only switch of any kind (on mine, at least) is a dial that pads the tweeter. I bought it a couple of years ago, maybe the design has evolved since then? I run from head to sub, and from sub to 15/6, as instructed by the builder

There should be a switch that pads down the mid driver when using the 15/6 as a stand-alone, and then allows higher output of the mid driver to balance the top end response when adding the sub.

Minor issue... and not related to the issues you are having.

 

[mbelue]

There should be a switch that pads down the mid driver when using the 15/6 as a stand-alone, and then allows higher output of the mid driver to balance the top end response when adding the sub.

Minor issue... and not related to the issues you are having.

Calm down Ken, not everyone hears things EXACTLY like you.

Yea this the switch I'm referring to.

Also true this is PROBABLY not related to his issues.
It does go towards answering some of what he is hearing. That mid padding goes a LONG way towards being heard in the mix.

*Edited for clarity.

 

[12bass]

Not sure what is going on, assuming that the crossover is working correctly and everything is in phase. The true 3-way crossover might be worth looking into. Personally, I did not find my stock 15/6/1 lacking mids, just a tad forward in the upper midrange for my taste. The true 3-way cured that. The GB forum is probably a good place for further advice.

 

[wcriley]

Also, remember that most well designed PA"s have subs, true midrange sections, and then upper midrange/treble boxes, expertly crossed over (usually electronically). That is different than putting a driver designed for subwoofer applications into a relatively small, higher tuned box, and then adding a small mid driver to cover the top end. Quite a different thing there.

True.
But how often does one find a "well designed" (or operated) system in the local bars where most of us work? Most bar systems are a hodge podge of even lesser quality than the bass cabinets under discussion.

Much easier to get a rig that sounds like you want it to sound IMO and IME

Agreed.

 

[Wolffgang]

True.
But how often does one find a "well designed" (or operated) system in the local bars where most of us work? Most bar systems are a hodge podge of even lesser quality than the bass cabinets under discussion.

With our shows, 100% of the time, but that's because in-house PAs aren't really a thing in Australia, or at least in Newcastle. We get paid more, but we schlep more. It'd really nice to just be able to show up with backline, but, to your point, it's good having absolute control over the gear quality and the mix.

Clearly, what you're saying is that I need to buy another cab, mic it, and run it into the fEarful

 

[Wolffgang]

POST GIG REPORT:

So much fail. I don't think I could be more underwhelmed. We were playing in a fairly small room, which initially I was disappointed about as I thought it would make for a poor test case, but it ultimately just served to highlight the failings. If this is really how this thing is supposed to work, I can't understand how anyone would want one.

Same issue as I've described before, just fundamentally lacking in 'presence'. I wasn't able to walk around the room to see what the dispersion was like, but on stage both the drummer and I agreed that the Hartke killed it. I used it with the Markbass head, both because that's what I was using with the Hartke and because it's supposed to have quite a flat EQ profile. I tried a variety of different things to coax the sounds out of it, and had the most success running the HPF fairly aggressive (knob sitting at about 9:00, which I think is roughly 100-110hz) and using the Darkglass VMT at low drive, but that 'most' success, not 'amount I wanted of' success. I experimented with various kinds of bass cutting and mid boosting on the head and with my EQ, and none of it really helped. It made obvious differences to the sound, but none of it really made it jump out of the mix in a pleasant way like the 4x10. We played a room easily twice the size, if not more, last week with the Hartke, and I don't think I even saw the clip light once.

The fEarful just seems like black hole for watts, and it doesn't really seem any louder no many how many I pump into it. I know perception of volume is a very subjective thing, even with the same person in different situations, so I'm assuming that there are differences, but I don't feel them. With it as an 8-ohm load, I've used the 250-ish watt Markbass LMII, the 500-ish watt Streamliner, and the 800 watt Crown XTi, and it has been lacking with all of them. The crossover has literally just been replaced, so I can only assume it's working as it ought it. I don't know anything about cab design, but when we pulled it apart everything certainly looked very sturdy and well put together. I know just as little about speakers, but they both looked fine as well. It certainly looks like it's functioning properly, but like I said, I cannot imagine this being a sound anyone wants. It'd be nice to see someone else's fEarful rig in action to see how it's supposed to be. I really wouldn't consider myself a traditionalist; I'm 24, and have no particular love of classic rock or attachment to the 'good ole way' of doing things. I don't know any more.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I don't know what to tell you. I have never had an issue with volume or presence with my cabs.

 

[Passinwind]

The crossover has literally just been replaced, so I can only assume it's working as it ought it. I don't know anything about cab design, but when we pulled it apart everything certainly looked very sturdy and well put together.

I would most emphatically not make those assumptions, especially if the crossover was just replaced. As Ken said, the crossover design calls for a pad switch in the midrange section. If that's not there you need to at least figure out which attenuation setting is in play, and go from there. Even if you're ready to sell the cabs, they will be worth a lot more when working as designed.

Reading back through this thread, my money's on a blown mid driver.

 

[mbelue]

The closest user I know of is 1freeridero in Sydney. They have a 12/6/1.
Probably quite a drive though.
I don't recall if they are a user here or at the GB forum.
I also do not know what amplification they are using.

 

[Wolffgang]

I would most emphatically not make those assumptions, especially if the crossover was just replaced. As Ken said, the crossover design calls for a pad switch in the midrange section. If that's not there you need to at least figure out which attenuation setting is in play, and go from there. Even if you're ready to sell the cabs, they will be worth a lot more when working as designed.

Reading back through this thread, my money's on a blown mid driver.

I'm willing to accept those as possibilities, but it wouldn't be my first assumption. It sounds the same as the day I got it, and it doesn't sound any different run on its own or with the sub (which I admit could support your blown-mid theory, but there's definitely sound coming from the mid). And Joseph Hawley seemed like a straight-up guy, and I have a hard time believing he'd send out a dud unit. He's been incredibly helpful with any questions I've had and with the rebuilt crossover.

How can I test the mid, or anything else you might suspect, to be sure?

 

[Passinwind]

How can I test the mid, or anything else you might suspect, to be sure?

If it sounds the same with or without the subwoofer there is most definitely a problem of some kind. Things get dislodged or broken in shipping, and something like a fractured solder joint is sometimes hard to suss unless you are very experienced with troubleshooting. Why was the crossover rebuilt, and what defects did Mr Hawley observe?

The best way to test the mid driver would be via biamping, since that would eliminate the passive crossover as a possible problem. Barring that (given that it would be a PITA), pull the driver, meter the DC resistance, and do a battery check on the terminals. You might also try playing full range music through it softly, with the bass turned way down.

Again, just throwing spitballs at this point. You've mentioned a few seemingly unrelated issues, and the mid driver and crossover probably aren't going to have too much effect on the high bass region that seems to be job one. Greenboy's longer port shelf mod could help in that regard, but I guess you've already tried the partial port blocking trick to see if that tack helps any?

Any chance of posting a couple of sound clips? Context is everything in cases like this.

 

[BurningSkies]

I don't know what to tell you. I have never had an issue with volume or presence with my cabs.

I agree. I'm at a loss here. I have no problem being heard, whether I've used a 500w Markbass amp or a big power amp. Plenty of presence (the mid can be near overpowering of you push your mids). The hearability has never been a problem at all...people comment that its like I'm playing with my own PA system, it can be quiet or loud and screamingly clean.

Something is still not right here.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Exactly what I was getting at with my first post. To be inaudible it has to be fubar crossover or gross operator error.