Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls

[KJung]

Not sure if the 'fun thread' thing was a dig, but you're more or less exactly who I wanted to hear from; reading over many 'fearful vs xamp / xcab', your name came up over and over with insightful things to say. Now we just need sundogue or burningskies to counterpoint you

Damn. I really, really appreciate the input, but damn. Sounds like I (and the rest of the band) just like low mids more than bass, and that it's a *lot* easier to get through a fairly cheap 4x10 than a top of the line custom-made engineering marvel. Makes me scratch my head a little, but if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Thanks

No dig at all. I was being totally serious For some strange reason, bass amplification is my 'hobby', and I spend much time gigging various rigs, attending GTG's, learning from the formal EE"s on this site and others I know, and sometimes serving as a prototype tester for a few different manufacturers (which is really fun!). Nothing more fun for me than a thread like this where a fellow TBer is trying to find his sound in a rig!

Again, where these sort of threads get into trouble is when guys get to the 'this one way is better for everyone'. I always come into these discussions with the feeling that there are very few pieces of gear on the market that aren't 'good sounding'. But lots of differences in tonality. I have never, ever, ever (not even once) been able to EQ one cab to sound exactly like another cab (and I kind of know what I'm doing). For me, the bass cabinet is probably the most important part of the signal chain for me in achieving the tone I enjoy. Also, there is a strong 'mix and match' thing going on, where some heads' voicing and EQ design work either 'with' or 'against' a given cab in achieving a specific tonality and response (and volume level, which again is another can of worms, since 'loud enough' is totally dependent on the player and situation).

One size doesn't fit all. However, there are loud, light, solutions for you to achieve your tone goal available if you don't want to haul around a traditional 410

If you get a chance to try the Baer ML212 with your Streamliner, it will be an eye opener for you I think. Otherwise... Markbass LMII/III and Hartke..... nice stuff IMO, and nothing wrong with that at all!

 

[Wolffgang]

No dig at all. I was being totally serious For some strange reason, bass amplification is my 'hobby', and I spend much time gigging various rigs, attending GTG's, learning from the formal EE"s on this site and others I know. Nothing more fun for me than a thread like this where a fellow TBer is trying to find his sound in a rig!

Again, where these sort of threads get into trouble is when guys get to the 'this one way is better for everyone'. I always come into these discussions with the feeling that there are very few pieces of gear on the market that aren't 'good sounding'. But lots of differences in tonality. I have never, ever, ever (not even once) been able to EQ one cab to sound exactly like another cab (and I kind of know what I'm doing). For me, the bass cabinet is probably the most important part of the signal chain for me in achieving the tone I enjoy. Also, there is a strong 'mix and match' thing going on, where some heads' voicing and EQ design work either 'with' or 'against' a given cab in achieving a specific tonality and response (and volume level, which again is another can of worms, since 'loud enough' is totally dependent on the player and situation).

One size doesn't fit all. However, there are loud, light, solutions for you to achieve your tone goal available if you don't want to haul around a traditional 410

If you get a chance to try the Baer ML212 with your Streamliner, it will be an eye opener for you I think. Otherwise... Markbass LMII/III and Hartke..... nice stuff IMO, and nothing wrong with that at all!

Awwwwww! That thing looks AMAZING! It ticks every box I have a preconception about: Lightweight? Check. 4-ohms in one box? Check. Good size-to-power ratio? Check. Sexy as hell? Check.

Time to peruse the classifieds

 

[KJung]

Awwwwww! That thing looks AMAZING! It ticks every box I have a preconception about: Lightweight? Check. 4-ohms in one box? Check. Good size-to-power ratio? Check. Sexy as hell? Check.

Time to peruse the classifieds

It again MIGHT be what you are looking for. Some of the very nice technical advantages of cabs like the fEARful or Acme LowB cabs, etc., but with a stronger nod toward the voicing that many are used to coming from 'classic ported two way 410 land'. Very impressive box IMO, with similar tonality as my beloved Bergantino CN212, but with a bit more wump in a mid driver design, and more friendly toward more aggressive 'rock' tones (as an oversimplification).

Let us know where you end up! Good luck!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Tell us more of this 4x10 plus 5" mid. I wouldn't draw any conclusions in a small room but it sounds like the 5" mid worked well.

The xti2000 has all the parametric eq you can shake a stick at for dialling in the fearful.

 

[Wolffgang]

Tell us more of this 4x10 plus 5" mid. I wouldn't draw any conclusions in a small room but it sounds like the 5" mid worked well.

The xti2000 has all the parametric eq you can shake a stick at for dialling in the fearful.

It's this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampl...m-4x10-1x5-aluminum-cone-bass-speaker-cabinet

I'm not really sure what more to say about it. I have no idea where it's crossed over, or how much of a factor the 5" speaker is. I've used it at a few gigs we've had between the fearful dying and being repaired, it was just last night that I was able to use them both at once. Using the hartke, the drummer said he could hear me a lot better, and I found I was doing a lot less knob-twidling trying to get the volume and tone where I wanted it.

By your last statement, I take it you think that with appropriate eq, I can make the fearful give me the low mids that I'm missing? I've been trying to boost the mids since day 1, more or less, so I'm not sure it'll get me there, but I'm no expert and may have been going about it the wrong way. I certainly hope I have, that'd make my life a lot easier. I know it'll be my ears that make the decision, but do you have any advice as to where I might start looking EQwise? I also have an MXR 10-band that I woefully underuse, if that helps.

 

[Downunderwonder]

10 band eq should be able to get you there, from what I've read about the fearful. Basically it has flat response and heaps of power handling, no reason you shouldn't be able to eq it to taste at whatever volume.

 

[KJung]

10 band eq should be able to get you there, from what I've read about the fearful. Basically it has flat response and heaps of power handling, no reason you shouldn't be able to eq it to taste at whatever volume.

IMO and lots of IME, not really. EQ is only part of the issue. They sound great, and 'sound like they do', just like any other cabinet I've ever played. No more or less strong voice than anything else, but definitely a 'different voice.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Did you ever sic a 10 band eq on one?

 

[Wolffgang]

10 band eq should be able to get you there, from what I've read about the fearful. Basically it has flat response and heaps of power handling, no reason you shouldn't be able to eq it to taste at whatever volume.

That was my assumption going in, hopefully it's just been a flaw in execution. Where might I start cutting and boosting (ear being the ultimate arbitrator, of course)?

 

[Downunderwonder]

Below 80 hz, progressively cut, above 80hz boost until it gets boxy.

 

[mbelue]

IMO and lots of IME, not really. EQ is only part of the issue. They sound great, and 'sound like they do', just like any other cabinet I've ever played. No more or less strong voice than anything else, but definitely a 'different voice.

I would agree that EQ is only part, compression can help some as well. With a cab like a fearful getting traditional sounds can take more equipment. Or the cabinet/amplifier combination may not work for you. You can add an outboard EQ and then an outboard compressor, but you still may not get there.
I would try more amplifiers with my fearful, but you may want to focus on other things.

 

[Wolffgang]

Below 80 hz, progressively cut, above 80hz boost until it gets boxy.

Sounds good. Dammit, I'm not going to be able to do any of this for days; I wanna play now!

 

[Foz]

Are you certain you have sorted you cab/cable polarity issues?

If you know that is all correct, try a low pass of 24 dB per octave around 375 Hz on your 15 sub - this will flatten the response of the stack from 100 to 1k Hz removing the knee at 525 Hz and sum with your 15/6 so as to add a lot more energy in the low mids - if you like that switch to a subby sub xover in your 15sub [add the 47μF cap along side your existing 30μF cap on your 15sub xover board] it'll cost about $12 + shipping.

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If you want even more prominence for low mids [south of 500 Hz] convert to a true three-way xover in the 15/6 - this will remove the wild behavior of your mid at the top of its range and taken together with a subby sub mod will result in a far punchier feel to the cab's response.

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Also try a better amp - those xti's are weak IME/IMO - on par with the ubiquitous "My Little Pony" lunch box amps that get flogged here on TB. Borrow a stout pro-grade PA amp and find out what you cabs can do.

 

[BurningSkies]

Not sure if the 'fun thread' thing was a dig, but you're more or less exactly who I wanted to hear from; reading over many 'fearful vs xamp / xcab', your name came up over and over with insightful things to say. Now we just need sundogue or burningskies to counterpoint you

Damn. I really, really appreciate the input, but damn. Sounds like I (and the rest of the band) just like low mids more than bass, and that it's a *lot* easier to get through a fairly cheap 4x10 than a top of the line custom-made engineering marvel. Makes me scratch my head a little, but if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Thanks

Oh?

 

[Wolffgang]

Are you certain you have sorted you cab/cable polarity issues?

If you know that is all correct, try a low pass of 24 dB per octave around 375 Hz on your 15 sub - this will flatten the response of the stack from 100 to 1k Hz removing the knee at 525 Hz and sum with your 15/6 so as to add a lot more energy in the low mids - if you like that switch to a subby sub xover in your 15sub [add the 47μF cap along side your existing 30μF cap on your 15sub xover board] it'll cost about $12 + shipping.

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

If you want even more prominence for low mids [south of 500 Hz] convert to a true three-way xover in the 15/6 - this will remove the wild behavior of your mid at the top of its range and taken together with a subby sub mod will result in a far punchier feel to the cab's response.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Also try a better amp - those xti's are weak IME/IMO - on par with the ubiquitous "My Little Pony" lunch box amps that get flogged here on TB. Borrow a stout pro-grade PA amp and find out what you cabs can do.

I will begin reading and learning, thanks for the input! The polarity is confirmed fine, and I'm also having the issue just using the 15/6/1 on its own.

And yeah, I agree about the XTi, it did seem pretty weak. I liked the LMII more than it, and it seemed comparably loud, which does not compute looking at the units' wattages (I was running the XTi bridged). Having used the hartke/LMII, I'm fairly sure it's not a wattage issue, just that I'm directing the watts to the wrong frequencies, so to speak.

 

[Wolffgang]

Oh?

I was just saying that in the posts I read of yours, you seemed to be in the 'it can be fixed with EQ' camp, rather than the 'it is what it is' camp

 

[BurningSkies]

I was just saying that in the posts I read of yours, you seemed to be in the 'it can be fixed with EQ' camp, rather than the 'it is what it is' camp

I'm of the opinion that if you want a 4x10 sound (low mid forward, fairly early roll off on the bass, possibly some attenuation in the upper mids to before a tweeter's range) the easiest way to do that is to go and get a 4x10.

Can you EQ that into a fEARful? Yeah, I think you can. I personally prefer simple/elegant solutions...the less gear that I can carry that makes the sound I want is my goal. In my case, I don't want to carry an additional EQ unit (rack or pedal) to do that. Not everyone feels that way, and plenty of people have decided that the DO want the extra control and the gear that is associated with that.

 

[Wolffgang]

I'm of the opinion that if you want a 4x10 sound (low mid forward, fairly early roll off on the bass, possibly some attenuation in the upper mids to before a tweeter's range) the easiest way to do that is to go and get a 4x10.

Can you EQ that into a fEARful? Yeah, I think you can. I personally prefer simple/elegant solutions...the less gear that I can carry that makes the sound I want is my goal. In my case, I don't want to carry an additional EQ unit (rack or pedal) to do that. Not everyone feels that way, and plenty of people have decided that the DO want the extra control and the gear that is associated with that.

I agree, generally; that's why using the Markbass and the Hartke was such a revelation, I was really enjoying not having to fiddle. But even if the hartke wasn't so damned heavy, it's not my cab, so I'd have to get another cab anyway. So if I can make gear I already have work better, I'd much rather do that. It doesn't have to sound just like the other combination, I just want to feel like I'm not hurting for volume all the time and overloading on other frequencies trying to get it. It sounds like a 'flatter' head (as opposed to the Streamliner) and making some real use of my EQ will do a lot.

Anyone know anything about the Aguilar DB659? People don't seem have much to say about it around here. It'd be kind of hilarious if it had a mid-scooped voicing like the Streamliner and that was a large part of my problem. Seems like the kind of thing I would have looked into before I bought it, but... actually, I'm not sure how that sentence ends.

 

[KJung]

I agree, generally; that's why using the Markbass and the Hartke was such a revelation, I was really enjoying not having to fiddle. But even if the hartke wasn't so damned heavy, it's not my cab, so I'd have to get another cab anyway. So if I can make gear I already have work better, I'd much rather do that. It doesn't have to sound just like the other combination, I just want to feel like I'm not hurting for volume all the time and overloading on other frequencies trying to get it. It sounds like a 'flatter' head (as opposed to the Streamliner) and making some real use of my EQ will do a lot.

Anyone know anything about the Aguilar DB659? People don't seem have much to say about it around here. It'd be kind of hilarious if it had a mid-scooped voicing like the Streamliner and that was a large part of my problem. Seems like the kind of thing I would have looked into before I bought it, but... actually, I'm not sure how that sentence ends.

I had a Streamliner when I had my fEARful. That is definitely part of the issue (the mix and match I was talking about above). Again, not a 'good or bad' thing, but the Streamliner has complex but limited EQ, and is relaxed in the midrange as part of its voice. It will not really punch, and seems to thrive more on a cab with a good dose of midrange (150hz-600hz) response (like the Berg AE410 or CN212, or the Baer ML212..which sounds MAGNIFICENT with that head).

That being said, I also had a Shuttle Max 9.2 when I had my fEARful, which is much brighter, tighter and much more powerful EQ. It got me much closer to where I wanted to be, but in no way could I match the punchy, uber articulate midrange clarity and voicing of, in my case back then, the AE410 (of course, the AE410 could in NO way match the powerful low end wump and extension of the fEARful..... they are what they are, not better or worse). When I found the CN212, which was lighter, a bit more even, and had a bit better form factor, I finally 'found the deal' for my tone in a relatively vertical, small but loud form factor.

So, before you throw the baby (fEARful) out with the bathwater, you might at least try a few different heads that have more control of the midrange (and also the upper midrange/lower treble, to smooth out that bite up there a bit.

 

[Mark Nye]

Yes, I meant volume issues. I run the gain almost maxed with the button in (but with a nos Philips 5751 in v1), the level and master change; I'm not always dissatisfied with volume, I just feel like I run out sometimes.

I run an STM900 with a single GB Bassic 15. With the gain button in, vol at noon and gain at noon, I can never manage to get the master past 12:00 before I'm told to turn down.

The only time I ever had volume issues with my STM was when I had a faulty preamp tube. If you're running the gain at max, the tone should be pretty wooly. If it's not, I'd check your tubes.