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Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls

#41
As KJung suggested the STM900 is loud, does my Aguilar DB750 rated at 750 into 4, wump on the STM900's 900 into 4ohms - unequivocally - yes. They are not even on the same planet... Do I like the sound of the STM into my Faital equipped dual 15 cab over the Aggie - yes sir - I do. Does the DB750 into 2, 3 or 4 Aggie GS112's make the Streamliner just look plain silly - yes.
What does all this mean? I like both heads with different cabinets, the DB750 is always louder and more visceral, but I don't always dig the tone. Which head do I take to more gigs - the Streamliner... heck I can haul ten STM900's to a gig with a lot less sweat than one DB750.
I hope this helps you somehow... cause it just made my brain hurt - well maybe that is just the empty glass of Bulliet - this can be fixed.
 
#42
KJung said:
Very much depends on the power management circuitry. The Genz amps, for many, actually sound 'better' when they move into the power tube emulation circuitry. +1 that other designs will start to compress noticeably when they hit their maximum designed output spec. If that happens a lot, time for more speakers or in some cases, more power.

If you get an amp of any design that shuts down when really pushed, or actually starts to clip noticeably, sell it. That is just bad design.

+1 also that overdriving a preamp is a different topic, and can sound great or awful, depending on the design goal.
Click to expand...

Yeah, per the manual the clip light is also part of its emulation of power section compression, but I don't know when it goes from performing as desired to hurting. When the protect light comes on I guess, but ideally I'd like to not have that kind of uncertainty.

I always thought I didn't like preamp distortion until I swapped out the V1 tube, an 12au7 lets you push it to max with just the barest touch of hair, and the NOS JAN philips 5751 that gets talked about in the streamliner tube rolling thread is AMAZING. The stock 12ax7 is naaasty, at least when pushed to any kind of overdrive.

I do love the tone of this thing's pre, so pairing it with a nice big poweramp sounds like a great way to go. But at the same time, if it's designed to emulate a tube amp, maybe better to spend a bit more and get it done.

To the people asking why I need so much volume, it's not so much that I, it's all about headroom. In most of the rooms I play, the amp is plenty, in some places it's more than enough. But in some rooms/situations, I have to compromise on tone to deal, and I don't like it. If it's something I can fix with a bigger amp, I want to do it.

Speaking of tube amps, I'm almost certainly looking overseas, since Australia's market is clearly designed to make you do that. The Traynor YBA300 seems to get plenty of love on here, and I can get it here, with the right voltage, for $1200, which is just about perfect. If anyone knows of any big problems with them, I'd like to know, or any other suggestions going up to about $2000 I'd love to hear them.

I haven't played a lot of tube amps, and none in a gig situation:

Ampeg SVT-VR - gotta be honest, hated it. It wasn't that awful, I just preferred everything else I played.

Ashdown CTM300 - my other serious contender, nice smooth characer, can user-bias, just didn't hear much in the way of OD

Markbass CMP300 (I think) - beautiful clean tone, but seemingly on OD, ungodly expensive, heard the digital biasing isn't great

Fender superbassman 300 - not bad, liked it more than the ampeg, but not more than the ashdown for the extra price.



I know this thread is kind of jumping around, topically, but I'm loving all the responses and help; I've used this place as a resource for years now, and raising my voice has not disappointed. Thank you all so much.
 
#43
atrapp said:
As KJung suggested the STM900 is loud, does my Aguilar DB750 rated at 750 into 4, wump on the STM900's 900 into 4ohms - unequivocally - yes. They are not even on the same planet... Do I like the sound of the STM into my Faital equipped dual 15 cab over the Aggie - yes sir - I do. Does the DB750 into 2, 3 or 4 Aggie GS112's make the Streamliner just look plain silly - yes.
What does all this mean? I like both heads with different cabinets, the DB750 is always louder and more visceral, but I don't always dig the tone. Which head do I take to more gigs - the Streamliner... heck I can haul ten STM900's to a gig with a lot less sweat than one DB750.
I hope this helps you somehow... cause it just made my brain hurt - well maybe that is just the empty glass of Bulliet - this can be fixed.
Click to expand...

I think I get what you mean. Sucks there's not a better way to measure volume than these seemingly useless watts. The easy hauling of the streamliner is part of what gives me faith in getting a tube amp; it's so tiny and light that there's no reason not to take to every gig as an excellent backup.

Always wanted to play an aguilar db750; it may sound trite, but I loved the model of it in my line 6, and everything else of aguilar that I've ever heard.
 
#44
Wolffgang said:
I think I get what you mean. Sucks there's not a better way to measure volume than these seemingly useless watts. The easy hauling of the streamliner is part of what gives me faith in getting a tube amp; it's so tiny and light that there's no reason not to take to every gig as an excellent backup.
Click to expand...

Oh I take my shuttle 900 as a backup to the streamliner 900 backing up the Orange TB500... :help:
 
#51
It doesn't matter whether one of the cabinets is internally wired out of phase or if one of the Speakon cables is out of phase. Either way, the two cabinets will be working against one another. A noticeable reduction in bass with two cabinets connected together is generally a good indicator that they are out of phase. I'd suggest rectifying this before considering buying more gear.
 
#53
The cab is fine (built by JHawk, a very talented builder and overall nice guy), but the speakons definitely were, if that can cause a similar problem?
Click to expand...

No one I think is in my tree. I mean it must be high or low. That is you can't, you know, tune in, but it's all right. That is I think it's not too bad.

:bassist:

Get a small battery and test the cabs and cables for polarity by observing cone movement... plus terminal on the +1 wire should make the woof move forward.
 
#55
This is a slight diversion from my original question, but it's my thread, so I'm asking it >.>

The crossover in my fearful shat itself recently, and I've been borrowing a friend's rig until it's back up and running. It's a markbass head (I think it's an LMII) and a Hartke cab (4x10 and a 5" mid, all with aluminium cones). I didn't think much of it, looking at it, but having used it I've been having pretty good results with it.

I've generally been having an easier time getting good stage volume without getting too much boom out in the room, not having to cut EQ radically to squeeze out more volume, nor any problems getting enough volume at all. Rarely see the clip light on it (which was very strongly on the genz once we got into full swing, but then again I have no idea if the clip lights of the two amps function the same). Even the drummer said he could hear me better.

The fearful should be repaired within a week, so I'll be able to do some proper A/B-ing myself and try and see what's going on, but until then I thought I'd see if the wisdom of talkbass. I mean, it's 900 watts going into two 15s being ably beaten by 2-300 watts going into four 10s; why is this happening?

My guesses would be either that there was a problem with the crossover from the start (could a crossover cause power issues?), or that the genz is the problem. Looking at some of the Streamliner tone primer and tube rolling threads, it has quite a pronounced baked-in mid-scoop, and even though I generally run the bass knob at about 8-10 o'clock with a variety of different mid boosts, maybe it's just not something I can get around with its passive eq. I've got FDeck's Series 3 HPF, but only got to use it at two quiet gigs before the cab died, so not sure if it would help.

I know this is a vague, multifaceted question with a lot of possible answers, the most obvious of which being 'just get a Hartke and sell the fearful', but it seems to me that if fearfuls were so ineffectual as I'm describing, they wouldn't get as much love on TB as they do, so I can't help but think there's something wrong with my setup. If anyone has any useful ideas, I'd love to hear them.
 
#57
Ugh. It's repaired, and I still like the Hartke.

Seems kind of funny that I'd like a Hartke, of all things, more than it. I used to have an Ashdown ABM 4x10 / 1x15, which I more or less hated for as long as I owned it, then an 8x10e, which I liked but no one else did, and now this fearful stack.

I was planning to use the fearfuls with a crown xti 2000 and an Aguilar db659 preamp, but am now rethinking that. The Markbass head I was using with the Hartke actually helped a bit.

I think most of what I'm hearing is just a bunch more low mids coming out of the hartke as compared to the fearful; the fearful is definitely going lower, and I can hear it, but it's just not 'cutting through' and 'filling' the way the hartke is. With the hartke, it's more present in the mix, and moving around the room, the sounds seems to be a lot more evenly dispersed. This was just a rehearsal studio, so it's not exactly a big room, but I still wasn't expecting it.

With the streamliner and now the power / pre combination, I've always pushed the mids in an effort to get more volume out of the cab (at least that's what I thought I was doing), and after with A/B-ing, I'm only really left with the conclusion to do more of that and hope for a better result.

I've got no problem with the idea of buying different gear, really, but I get the feeling trying to sell a fearful in Australia will take forever and I won't get what it's worth, considering their relative obscurity in the US, let alone internationally.

Please, save me, how can I get what I like about the hartke from the fearful?
 
#58
Wolffgang said:
Ugh. It's repaired, and I still like the Hartke.

Seems kind of funny that I'd like a Hartke, of all things, more than it. I used to have an Ashdown ABM 4x10 / 1x15, which I more or less hated for as long as I owned it, then an 8x10e, which I liked but no one else did, and now this fearful stack.

I was planning to use the fearfuls with a crown xti 2000 and an Aguilar db659 preamp, but am now rethinking that. The Markbass head I was using with the Hartke actually helped a bit.

I think most of what I'm hearing is just a bunch more low mids coming out of the hartke as compared to the fearful; the fearful is definitely going lower, and I can hear it, but it's just not 'cutting through' and 'filling' the way the hartke is. With the hartke, it's more present in the mix, and moving around the room, the sounds seems to be a lot more evenly dispersed. This was just a rehearsal studio, so it's not exactly a big room, but I still wasn't expecting it.

With the streamliner and now the power / pre combination, I've always pushed the mids in an effort to get more volume out of the cab (at least that's what I thought I was doing), and after with A/B-ing, I'm only really left with the conclusion to do more of that and hope for a better result.

I've got no problem with the idea of buying different gear, really, but I get the feeling trying to sell a fearful in Australia will take forever and I won't get what it's worth, considering their relative obscurity in the US, let alone internationally.

Please, save me, how can I get what I like about the hartke from the fearful?
Click to expand...


Nice to read through this fun thread again.

All I can say is I too sold my fEARful (and have sold every other 'LF' based cab I've owned). You hit the nail on the head. That big low end extension of the LF driver with very little low mid presence (it is a speaker designed for subwoofer applications) has a 'sound of its own' that is definitely not my thing. It emulates a PA... very deep, very wide, not particularly punchy, with a bright spike of upper midrange (at least with the original crossover and the 18sound mid driver).

That isn't a bad thing, but it slots your bass in a mix quite differently... sits kind of 'under the band'. I missed the clear, punchy articulation of a high quality more traditionally designed bass cab with a stronger dose of low mids through mid mids, a bit less low end extenstion, and to me, a much nicer top end (less spikey, with the dips and peaks in more 'musical' places). And, as you found, as a positive, you can get away with MUCH less wattage and slot into a mix much closer to what you would hear in a nicely mastered recording.

Different strokes, and not 'better or worse', but I was never able to dial that sort of 'post mastered sit in a mix' tone with any 'LF' loaded cab.

Others, of course, love them. If I was doing a dub gig thing, I'd still be playing the fEARful... amazing, full, open low end.

Listen with your ears, not with your eyes. If you like the tone and performance of 'rig x' better than 'rig y', then for you, 'rig x' is better... period.:)


Edit: Just FYI, I've found the best execution of a mid driver loaded cab with powerful 'pro sound' drivers is the Baer stuff. The Baer ML212 (again, always easy to spend someone else's money, but just something to think about), is a high sensitivity cab using OEM tweaks of the 3012HO drivers... moving them a bit closer to the low end performance of the LF, but still sounding more punchy and articulate and warm. Roger also uses a MUCH better sounding mid driver for bass guitar (IMO and IME)... one of the Faital models, and due to the HO drivers, he can cross them over quite a bit higher than the fEARful cabs, so you get a more traditional 'bass cab' tone (punchy, warm, organic up top) with still a good dose of the advantages of pro sound quality woofers and a mid driver. VERY nice cab that kind of sits between your fEARFul and the Hartke. Relatively lightweight. Wonderful cab, 4ohms. My Bergantino CN212 is smaller and lighter, and tonally is a bit closer to what I prefer, but the ML212 is a wumper and takes aggressive overdrive tones wonderfully also. Just FYI, and Roger's cabs are available 'down under'
 
#59
KJung said:
Nice to read through this fun thread again.

All I can say is I too sold my fEARful (and have sold every other 'LF' based cab I've owned). You hit the nail on the head. That big low end extension of the LF driver with very little low mid presence (it is a speaker designed for subwoofer applications) has a 'sound of its own' that is definitely not my thing. It emulates a PA... very deep, very wide, not particularly punchy, with a bright spike of upper midrange (at least with the original crossover and the 18sound mid driver).

That isn't a bad thing, but it slots your bass in a mix quite differently... sits kind of 'under the band'. I missed the clear, punchy articulation of a high quality more traditionally designed bass cab with a stronger dose of low mids through mid mids, a bit less low end extenstion, and to me, a much nicer top end (less spikey, with the dips and peaks in more 'musical' places). And, as you found, as a positive, you can get away with MUCH less wattage and slot into a mix much closer to what you would hear in a nicely mastered recording.

Different strokes, and not 'better or worse', but I was never able to dial that sort of 'post mastered sit in a mix' tone with any 'LF' loaded cab.

Others, of course, love them. If I was doing a dub gig thing, I'd still be playing the fEARful... amazing, full, open low end.

Listen with your ears, not with your eyes. If you like the tone and performance of 'rig x' better than 'rig y', then for you, 'rig x' is better... period.:)


Edit: Just FYI, I've found the best execution of a mid driver loaded cab with powerful 'pro sound' drivers is the Baer stuff. The Baer ML212 (again, always easy to spend someone else's money, but just something to think about), is a high sensitivity cab using OEM tweaks of the 3012HO drivers... moving them a bit closer to the low end performance of the LF, but still sounding more punchy and articulate and warm. Roger also uses a MUCH better sounding mid driver for bass guitar (IMO and IME)... one of the Faital models, and due to the HO drivers, he can cross them over quite a bit higher than the fEARful cabs, so you get a more traditional 'bass cab' tone (punchy, warm, organic up top) with still a good dose of the advantages of pro sound quality woofers and a mid driver. VERY nice cab that kind of sits between your fEARFul and the Hartke. Relatively lightweight. Wonderful cab, 4ohms. My Bergantino CN212 is smaller and lighter, and tonally is a bit closer to what I prefer, but the ML212 is a wumper and takes aggressive overdrive tones wonderfully also. Just FYI, and Roger's cabs are available 'down under'
Click to expand...

Not sure if the 'fun thread' thing was a dig, but you're more or less exactly who I wanted to hear from; reading over many 'fearful vs xamp / xcab', your name came up over and over with insightful things to say. Now we just need sundogue or burningskies to counterpoint you :P

Damn. I really, really appreciate the input, but damn. Sounds like I (and the rest of the band) just like low mids more than bass, and that it's a *lot* easier to get through a fairly cheap 4x10 than a top of the line custom-made engineering marvel. Makes me scratch my head a little, but if that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Thanks :)
 
#60
This tube amp looks ideal for a loud band with a 15/6/1 + 15LF:
lWP5XU8cUrNSXjEWhiNZV3CznDWpWHEDY3hE5M1gCvs=.jpg

:hyper:
You just need a few extra 6550's for a Fearful:D
LSYfOVye9qmS7sD7fAloJtW5Rrkj4IyhK1JOTH0WWag=.jpg

:bassist::hyper::bassist:
 

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