This is my feeling. Doubling up wattage at that point is worth a measly 3dB. Something is up in the amp gain or your cabs are miswired or plonked 3 to 8ft from a corner.
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Tubes, SS Monsters, and fEarfuls
- Thread starter Wolffgang
- Start date
The Streamliner is a nice, loud, full sounding amp. However, it uses complex power management to reach its wattage rating, which some of the tech guys still dispute.
With most cabs and for most users, it just pumps, and is full and loud. However, when I did some A-B testing between the Streamliner and the M6 into an 8ohm fEARful 15/6, there was actually no contest... the M6 WUMPED it. I think the combination of the deep low end capability of the fEARful cabs, combined with moderate sensitivity, and the rather sharp hi passing of the Streamliner with its 'non traditional' design results in it not quite performing as you would expect with the fEARful cabs, given its nominal power rating.
And, additional wattage is often not about volume, but about deep, uncompressed, low end headroom. If any cab is capable of laying any low end performance issue of an amp bare, it would be the fEARfuls (or even more so, the Acme's).
Not doggin' the Streamliner... love it! But if you are playing stupid loud, I can see running out of deep, uncompressed low end as that power management system kicks in. To me, that actually sounds quite good if you are going after a vintage vibe, since it emulates the way an all tube amp breaks up and compresses when pushed quite nicely.
That being said, and to your point (and to the OP), if you are running the amp with those gain and master setting, your 'power management/clip' indicator should literally stay on constantly. If it is not, there is something wrong with the amp.
IMO and IME.
Is that some TC style power management? News to me.
How come there would be a fault in the amp if the clip light isn't on?
How come there would be a fault in the amp if the clip light isn't on?
No, not that extreme. The Streamliner900 uses the same ICE 250x2 power module as the Aguilar500 (rated at 500 watts bridged into 8ohms). They use some very nice power management and heat management to allow that module to run bridged at 4ohms without sounding funky or melting. However, it surely isn't the same thing as, for example, the ICE 1000 watt monoblock unit. Again, the performance of the head is very good, and that power management allows it to get quite loud, and sort of emulate a tube amp.
My comment about the 'clip light' is that if the OP is really maxing the output of that amp by having that massive gain setting (with the input boost engaged) and the master almost dimed, then that head will be in 'full power management mode' (with the 'power management light' on steadily). I thought that 'might' be a way to determine if he really was maxing the amp out. If that indicator is not lit up constantly, that means the amp has 'more to give', and something might be wrong with the preamp (bad tube or whatever).
To put this into perspective, I used the Streamliner with a 4ohm Bergantino AE410, often in large rooms with no PA support and a reasonably loud, large pop/funk/hip hop band, and I never even once reached the 'power management engaged' clip light, even with hard slapping on the E string. So, something does seems a bit off. However, if any cab can drive an amp to its limits, it would be one of the fEARfuls with those big LF drivers.
Again, just musing on this and IMO/IME!
I ran JGR's 6SL7 Pre using the power section of my Streamie. Streamie power section is colored for lack of a better term. It sounded a hair dark but frankly, I never noticed until the DCM3000l came in and I set it up proper.
I can't help but sit here wondering out of morbid curiousity how much of that power section tonal color contributes to the overall tone of the 900.
While I love my rig as it stands and have no desire to change anything, I guess I should test the Streamie's Pre using my DCM3000l for giggles. Always something to learn.
If it's 'icky' (technical term), I'll let you know.
I can't help but sit here wondering out of morbid curiousity how much of that power section tonal color contributes to the overall tone of the 900.
While I love my rig as it stands and have no desire to change anything, I guess I should test the Streamie's Pre using my DCM3000l for giggles. Always something to learn.
If it's 'icky' (technical term), I'll let you know.
KJung has singlehandedly introduced the word "wump" to the world as a noun and a verb.
I use the English language wumpingly.I am really impressed with the power management of the Streamliner. It is 'part of the sound' of that amp IMO, and will 'warm it up' as you push it, seemingly in the power section. The whole point of that amp IMO is to emulate an all tube amp, and it really does it quite nicely IMO. The whole nature of the amp evolves as you crank it.
Really nicely designed piece of gear. Is it a true, pure 900 watts? I'm not sure. However, it definitely outperforms my Markbass 500 watt heads in total volume and headroom, so whatever they are doing with that power module, it performs at a pretty darn high level to my ear.
Post gig reporting, I think downunder maybe have been right on about the the reversed polarity and the resulting phase cancellation. It was a quietish gig, but even using just the 15/6 with the streamliner (which runs at like 500 watts at 8ohms..?), I barely had to turn it up. I also swapped out a very microphonic au7 in v1. I was using it before having volume issues, but thought I should take the suggestion.
So hopefully the people saying that 900 should be enough watts are right, and I've just been doing it wrong. Which hopefully means I can buy a tube amp
Thanks for all the responses, sounds like I have a lot of territory to cover and explore. Excelsior!
So hopefully the people saying that 900 should be enough watts are right, and I've just been doing it wrong. Which hopefully means I can buy a tube amp
Thanks for all the responses, sounds like I have a lot of territory to cover and explore. Excelsior!
So it's ok to have the clip light on solidly? I read the manual section on the 3dpm technology, and didn't fully understand. But I also found that once I was at the clip light solidly on point, turning up the volume didn't do anything. BUT, I'm almost certain I was having those speakon issues downunder was describing when I finally tried to stress the amp. I was scared off pushing it too hard when it suddenly stopped giving output when I was taxing it in a very dead room; I turned it off and back on and it was fine, but the protect light didn't come on, so I wasn't sure what was happening.
Honestly, I don't get you guys with 600 900 1200 watt amps that arent loud enough.
I have a 225 watt tube head that is almost always too loud. The only time It wasn't enough amp was when I was playing in a metal band with 3 100w guitar amps.
then I started trying to hook up more cabs.
I've totally been there on the "out of phase" thing.
Used to run a rack setup with a pre/compressor/effects/poweramp.
I recall setting up backstage at the Phoenix in Petaluma Ca, my amp just wouldnt get loud?! I had both amps hitting their peak lights while driving a 2x15 and 4x10.
Turned out I had a miswired XLR to TRS cable.
I have a 225 watt tube head that is almost always too loud. The only time It wasn't enough amp was when I was playing in a metal band with 3 100w guitar amps.
then I started trying to hook up more cabs.
I've totally been there on the "out of phase" thing.
Used to run a rack setup with a pre/compressor/effects/poweramp.
I recall setting up backstage at the Phoenix in Petaluma Ca, my amp just wouldnt get loud?! I had both amps hitting their peak lights while driving a 2x15 and 4x10.
Turned out I had a miswired XLR to TRS cable.
Turn your tweet all the way down, break out a 9 volt battery, remove the jack plate and find out
I played the Streamliner through my 12/6-12/sub combo at a TB GTG. It sounded really good but.......I could reach it's limits fairly easily. Definitely try a power amp with enough headroom so you don't reach it's limits. One thing about the fEARfuls as the can soak up the watts, especially if you like a low end push. I found the limit of my old 700RB-II as well. I know less watts but SS break-up isn't pretty through the 6 inch mid. People need to remember you say you play without FOH, so your cabs are it for bass in the room. I say bring on the watts and be happy!!!!
How loud do you really want to be? It sounds like you're at the point of physical pain, or close to it.
I may be the only one to suggest this if you don't want to walk around as an old man with a constant ringing in your ears I would use caution when playing these volumes.
I may be the only one to suggest this if you don't want to walk around as an old man with a constant ringing in your ears I would use caution when playing these volumes.
- Jun 29, 2006
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- President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
Absolutely. If you can get away with playing a 500 watt micro, that's great, but you ain't playin loud, that's for sure. Big watts are cheap and once you roll with some real horsepower, it's hard to go back.
Just cause you got a mile of clean headroom does not mean you have to player louder than you would otherwise - its means that however loud you choose to play you will not relinquish control of your tone to the limitations of you amp.
If you own a super cab - a PA in a box - you owe it to yourself to at least on a provisional trial basis put quality PA spec' gear in front of it and discover what such a rig can do... after all, you paid for the cab, why not explore the possibilities it affords?
If you own a super cab - a PA in a box - you owe it to yourself to at least on a provisional trial basis put quality PA spec' gear in front of it and discover what such a rig can do... after all, you paid for the cab, why not explore the possibilities it affords?
It's been my experience that turning up micros as hard as you can possibly can is never good for them. Either you send them into cutout, a limiter kick in and sounds most unpleasant, they will give you nasty sounding digital clipping, or a combination of them. But some micros are designed to overdrive when you crank the gain, and that's perfectly fine.
Very much depends on the power management circuitry. The Genz amps, for many, actually sound 'better' when they move into the power tube emulation circuitry. +1 that other designs will start to compress noticeably when they hit their maximum designed output spec. If that happens a lot, time for more speakers or in some cases, more power.
If you get an amp of any design that shuts down when really pushed, or actually starts to clip noticeably, sell it. That is just bad design.
+1 also that overdriving a preamp is a different topic, and can sound great or awful, depending on the design goal.
