My 5 string is tuned E, A, D, G, B and it sits with chords amazingly. Just sayin.
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Double Bass Tuning in 5ths vs. a five string
- Thread starter spebald16
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My 5 string is tuned E, A, D, G, B and it sits with chords amazingly. Just sayin.
Lots of great things being said. Some ruffled feathers, but that's going to happen any time "my way" vs. "your way" debates come up.
I play in 5ths. I play German bow. I have studied with Joel Quarrington for a summer program at Orford in Quebec. I have also studied with two of his former students, one in 5ths, and one in 4ths who plays a 5 string.
Getting back to the original "point" of the thread about the different tuning options, I largely agree with what has been said.
Five strings: Difficult to find.
When you do find one, often it doesn't play or sound very good.
Often, they are HUGE instruments. Sometimes they are "converted" 4 string instruments that happened to be huge (this happens a lot in England) or they were built that way. I am not a tall guy with long arms and a big hand, so I find them awkward.
Learning curve to new instrument, string spacing, string, etc.
When you find a good one, they are amazing. I can't stress this enough. Having played in a section with one and having taken lessons from a teacher who played one, they both were wonderful. I haven't found one I like since though. These are definitely the European norm, with a few local exceptions.
4ths with an Extension: Machine, chromatic or single capos. Regardless to the "it can be done" camp of guys out there, and I know that there are a lot, It is very challenging to play anything quick in that register. Does it happen often? Not really. Most of the notes we see down there are pedals, and in that case, having chromatic capos you can set to an open Eb or whatever you need is definitely an advantage. These are definitely the North American norm, with a few local exceptions.
5ths: A lot of basses really open up in 5ths. Even without the wings cut off the bridge, or crazy bright strings or any of the technique often associated with it. There are some physics I don't understand, but the overtones line up better. I have yet to hear a bass that doesn't sound better when tuned in 5ths than it does in 4ths.
Is it "easier" or "harder" to pay some individual passages in this tuning? Yes. From an orchestral point of view, I have found for the most part, there are more easier than harder passages found in STANDARD repertoire. If you find yourself in an orchestra than plays a lot of Berg, Stravinsky, Ravel, or anyone else who often takes advantage of 4ths tuning, that is fantastic. I would love to play in an orchestra like that. Although I think we will find that the majority of us who play in orchestras, anywhere from High Schools, to College/University, to Community/Regional/Semi-Professional all the way to Professional orchestras, you still find yourself playing a lot of "the greatest hits" of classical music, which often involves a lot of Mozart and Beethoven, concertos that bring in soloists and fill seats in concert halls, and occasionally something else that's a little more stimulating.
Solo repertoire: The Bottesini, Koussevitzky, and Dittersdorf concertos are all very playable in 5ths, having played all of them. Apparently the Vanhal is pretty manageable as well, although I haven't played it myself. The Dragonetti concerto with the low A might not be as manageable, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say a couple of things people likely will hate me for.
1. Other than when you are in school (high school, university, grad school, summer programs, private lessons etc.) how often to you get a chance to play solo rep?
2. A lot of bass solo rep is not very good music. Most of the composers known for bass work, (several of which have already been mentioned) also wrote symphonies, operas, string quartets, and tons of other music. NONE of it has survived besides the bass music, and I am going to argue that the big reason for that is that compared to their contemporaries, it just wasn't up to snuff. Please don't hate me, but the absolute best played Elephant still doesn't hold a candle to the Swan. which transitions quite well into:
3. There is better rep out there written for other instruments that is now a lot more at your disposal. There are countless cello sonatas, and a lot of the baroque sonatas of Vivaldi and Marcello sound really great with bass and harpsichord. I played the Shostakovich cello sonata on my graduating recital, and it is a beautiful piece of music. Joel Quarrington often "borrows" music from other instruments, to great effect. Many other instruments do the same, viola often plays violin or cello music, brass and woodwind instruments very regularly borrow from other instruments, so why can't we? How else are we going to play bach?
As for whether or not you should or shouldn't tune in 5ths, it really depends on the resources available to you, and what direction you want to go in with your bass playing. If you live in Canada, the North Eastern states, or London now that he is playing in the LSO and can have an opportunity to study with Joel Quarrington at one of the summer programs or universities (or rarely privately) then definitely go for it. If you have access to another teacher who plays in 5ths, go for it. If you don't, and you don't have an open minded teacher who is willing to work with you and work around the differences in your tunings, you are going to have a bad time. Just like bows, you can often study the opposite of what your teacher plays, but you don't get nearly as much out of the experience.
If you want to do anything besides be in a professional orchestra, (jazz, blues, folk, rockabilly, solo or chamber music) 98% of the musicians you work with are going to care if you are in tune and in time, and won't care which tuning you use, or even notice half the time. If you are playing in a community orchestra with a minimal audition process, if you can play the instrument well, you will likely be fine. However, if you are trying to audition for a large orchestra, you are going to have to be able to play miles above and beyond the orchestra's second choice to be even considered for the position. Joel Quarrington is one of those players. He switched to 5ths after he had tenure with the TSO (which he got in 4ths with a machine on a french bow) and since then has played with the NACO, the LSO, and taught at a lot of really great institutions. I have also heard of players in 5ths being turned away from professional auditions either during the application process or at the audition itself, because "our orchestra doesn't play that way". This is the same for French and German bows in some orchestras too. I would like to see a world where we can all just get along and the best player gets the job, but that isn't always the case.
Sorry for the novel. More my my $2.00 than $0.02.
I play in 5ths. I play German bow. I have studied with Joel Quarrington for a summer program at Orford in Quebec. I have also studied with two of his former students, one in 5ths, and one in 4ths who plays a 5 string.
Getting back to the original "point" of the thread about the different tuning options, I largely agree with what has been said.
Five strings: Difficult to find.
When you do find one, often it doesn't play or sound very good.
Often, they are HUGE instruments. Sometimes they are "converted" 4 string instruments that happened to be huge (this happens a lot in England) or they were built that way. I am not a tall guy with long arms and a big hand, so I find them awkward.
Learning curve to new instrument, string spacing, string, etc.
When you find a good one, they are amazing. I can't stress this enough. Having played in a section with one and having taken lessons from a teacher who played one, they both were wonderful. I haven't found one I like since though. These are definitely the European norm, with a few local exceptions.
4ths with an Extension: Machine, chromatic or single capos. Regardless to the "it can be done" camp of guys out there, and I know that there are a lot, It is very challenging to play anything quick in that register. Does it happen often? Not really. Most of the notes we see down there are pedals, and in that case, having chromatic capos you can set to an open Eb or whatever you need is definitely an advantage. These are definitely the North American norm, with a few local exceptions.
5ths: A lot of basses really open up in 5ths. Even without the wings cut off the bridge, or crazy bright strings or any of the technique often associated with it. There are some physics I don't understand, but the overtones line up better. I have yet to hear a bass that doesn't sound better when tuned in 5ths than it does in 4ths.
Is it "easier" or "harder" to pay some individual passages in this tuning? Yes. From an orchestral point of view, I have found for the most part, there are more easier than harder passages found in STANDARD repertoire. If you find yourself in an orchestra than plays a lot of Berg, Stravinsky, Ravel, or anyone else who often takes advantage of 4ths tuning, that is fantastic. I would love to play in an orchestra like that. Although I think we will find that the majority of us who play in orchestras, anywhere from High Schools, to College/University, to Community/Regional/Semi-Professional all the way to Professional orchestras, you still find yourself playing a lot of "the greatest hits" of classical music, which often involves a lot of Mozart and Beethoven, concertos that bring in soloists and fill seats in concert halls, and occasionally something else that's a little more stimulating.
Solo repertoire: The Bottesini, Koussevitzky, and Dittersdorf concertos are all very playable in 5ths, having played all of them. Apparently the Vanhal is pretty manageable as well, although I haven't played it myself. The Dragonetti concerto with the low A might not be as manageable, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say a couple of things people likely will hate me for.
1. Other than when you are in school (high school, university, grad school, summer programs, private lessons etc.) how often to you get a chance to play solo rep?
2. A lot of bass solo rep is not very good music. Most of the composers known for bass work, (several of which have already been mentioned) also wrote symphonies, operas, string quartets, and tons of other music. NONE of it has survived besides the bass music, and I am going to argue that the big reason for that is that compared to their contemporaries, it just wasn't up to snuff. Please don't hate me, but the absolute best played Elephant still doesn't hold a candle to the Swan. which transitions quite well into:
3. There is better rep out there written for other instruments that is now a lot more at your disposal. There are countless cello sonatas, and a lot of the baroque sonatas of Vivaldi and Marcello sound really great with bass and harpsichord. I played the Shostakovich cello sonata on my graduating recital, and it is a beautiful piece of music. Joel Quarrington often "borrows" music from other instruments, to great effect. Many other instruments do the same, viola often plays violin or cello music, brass and woodwind instruments very regularly borrow from other instruments, so why can't we? How else are we going to play bach?
As for whether or not you should or shouldn't tune in 5ths, it really depends on the resources available to you, and what direction you want to go in with your bass playing. If you live in Canada, the North Eastern states, or London now that he is playing in the LSO and can have an opportunity to study with Joel Quarrington at one of the summer programs or universities (or rarely privately) then definitely go for it. If you have access to another teacher who plays in 5ths, go for it. If you don't, and you don't have an open minded teacher who is willing to work with you and work around the differences in your tunings, you are going to have a bad time. Just like bows, you can often study the opposite of what your teacher plays, but you don't get nearly as much out of the experience.
If you want to do anything besides be in a professional orchestra, (jazz, blues, folk, rockabilly, solo or chamber music) 98% of the musicians you work with are going to care if you are in tune and in time, and won't care which tuning you use, or even notice half the time. If you are playing in a community orchestra with a minimal audition process, if you can play the instrument well, you will likely be fine. However, if you are trying to audition for a large orchestra, you are going to have to be able to play miles above and beyond the orchestra's second choice to be even considered for the position. Joel Quarrington is one of those players. He switched to 5ths after he had tenure with the TSO (which he got in 4ths with a machine on a french bow) and since then has played with the NACO, the LSO, and taught at a lot of really great institutions. I have also heard of players in 5ths being turned away from professional auditions either during the application process or at the audition itself, because "our orchestra doesn't play that way". This is the same for French and German bows in some orchestras too. I would like to see a world where we can all just get along and the best player gets the job, but that isn't always the case.
Sorry for the novel. More my my $2.00 than $0.02.
Thanks Mike It helps to hear from people with experience, could you please talk about your bass... string scale?? does it have to be small?
Thanks
As for string length, I have not had any real issues with my bass at 42 1/2. It was at 43 1/2 about 15 years back but I brought it down a bit with a false nut, I was still in fourths at the time, but string makers generally seem to be thinking basses are somewhere in the 41 to 42.5 inch range and I find that everything is pretty comfortable anywhere in that ballpark. Later I had to have the neck reset and while we were at it I had it brought down a bit more. I think my bass sounds and plays better now, whether in fourths or fifths.
The bass I use for travel is smaller with a string length of 40.25". It's fun to play and things are easier to reach, but I don't see it as a huge advantage. Some of the strings I have tried on it were also far too low on tension for me as well. Tomoya Aomori suggests 38" on his website as ideal, but I disagree. I think that would be too short to feel comfortable and sound present enough. To me the ideal for fifths playing would be anywhere between 40 and 41, but I really don't think you should let a longer string length stop you from checking it out, or think that you need to adjust your bass to accommodate the tuning. I have no plans to further change my good bass, even though 42 1/2 is considered a bit on the long side by current standards (both for conventional fourths or in fifths), it sounds good the way it is and is by no means prohibiting me from playing in fifths.
The bass I use for travel is smaller with a string length of 40.25". It's fun to play and things are easier to reach, but I don't see it as a huge advantage. Some of the strings I have tried on it were also far too low on tension for me as well. Tomoya Aomori suggests 38" on his website as ideal, but I disagree. I think that would be too short to feel comfortable and sound present enough. To me the ideal for fifths playing would be anywhere between 40 and 41, but I really don't think you should let a longer string length stop you from checking it out, or think that you need to adjust your bass to accommodate the tuning. I have no plans to further change my good bass, even though 42 1/2 is considered a bit on the long side by current standards (both for conventional fourths or in fifths), it sounds good the way it is and is by no means prohibiting me from playing in fifths.
42" string length, fully carved roundback Czech shop made bass from 2003. Originally purchased and used in 4ths. The nut was slightly altered to allow for the wider C string, but any other alterations (a new bridge because it came with a horrible one, fingerboard dressing etc.) had nothing to do with it being in 5ths.
I am 5'10", have relatively sort arms, not very large hands, brown eyes, a charming personality and enjoy... oh wait, we're still on talkbass. My bass is a "normal" bass, and I am not someone who makes a 42" string length seem like a 38" because of my size/hand. I can only reach an octave on the piano.
I would love to play a bass with smaller shoulders to make it easier to get around, but I really don't think instrument size/string length needs to change, just like Chris said. One day I'll find that magical bass with nice "French" shoulders, or get one of those curvy Pollmanns with Busetto corners and a nice big bottom... Right, we're STILL on talkbass.
Technique does definitely change. I teach Simandl-ish to my students in 4ths, but it doesn't work on a bass in 5ths. Your hand covers a minor third, (E-G on the D string in "first position") and I hesitate to call it "pivoting" or "4 finger technique" because it is just different than in 4ths. In 5ths you keep a small hand and move it when you need to. When I am playing a long G on the D string with my 4th finger, my whole hand is close to that note, and you do not leave your 1st finger all the way back on the E. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about 5ths that 4ths players have, that your hand has to be stretched to cover that minor third at all times. 5ths is about keeping your hand strong. Your thumb does stay pretty "quiet" though and you pivot around it. Some keys suck, especially really low on the instrument, but there isn't really an excessive amount of shifting as one would imagine.
In a lot of keys, I have just over two octaves from a low C to a D in one position, with one shift of a whole tone up and back under my hand. On a 5 string in 4ths, you get almost two octaves to a B with a half position shift. In 4ths with an extension, you have to shift through the extension/use a machine to get the low notes, still have the half position shift for some notes, and then still only up to a B. So, using that logic I occasionally have a whole tone instead of a half tone shift in the lower positions, but compared to 4ths and an extension, It really isn't that much shifting.
A lot of passages are played up/down the string instead of across strings, which leads to slightly more shifting, but often cleaner passages. In fourths, try quickly alternating between an F# on your D string, and an A on your G string by crossing strings. With your first finger on the F#, "pivot" the minor third for the A on the D string. It's infinitely easier for your bow arm, and much easier to be more articulate sounding than with rapid string crossings. A lot of runs that would be across strings in 4ths that are up the string in 5ths do require more command of shifting, but as demonstrated by this little "exercise" fast shifts are often cleaner than fast string crossings.
The "5ths sound" is often considered to be bright, focused, articulate, and very present. The instrument does often open up more in 5ths, and I know my bass got "louder" than it was in 4ths. Joel Quarrington is often championed as the definitive bassist in this school is a fantastic player. Few would argue that he had a small sound when he played in 4ths with a French bow and a machine though. Most people have heard "his sound" on his recordings and as a soloist. Keep in mind that anyone regardless of tuning plays differently as a soloist than with a section, as you are playing a fundamentally different role. As a section leader, Joel does have a lot of presence, but I don't see this as a bad thing. It is an artistic choice. Personally, I would rather have "that sound" than some of the other sounds we heard coming out of bass sections...
Blending with a section has nothing to do with tuning. Musicianship has everything to do with blend, and sometimes your equipment (string choices for example) can help, but Joel definitely sounds like Joel regardless to what bass, bow, or tuning you give him. Ray Brown sounded like Ray Brown and there are tons of stories of him teaching masterclasses and workshops where he picked the worst looking instrument in the room to demonstrate on. Edgar sounds like Edgar, the list goes on.
I am 5'10", have relatively sort arms, not very large hands, brown eyes, a charming personality and enjoy... oh wait, we're still on talkbass. My bass is a "normal" bass, and I am not someone who makes a 42" string length seem like a 38" because of my size/hand. I can only reach an octave on the piano.
I would love to play a bass with smaller shoulders to make it easier to get around, but I really don't think instrument size/string length needs to change, just like Chris said. One day I'll find that magical bass with nice "French" shoulders, or get one of those curvy Pollmanns with Busetto corners and a nice big bottom... Right, we're STILL on talkbass.
Technique does definitely change. I teach Simandl-ish to my students in 4ths, but it doesn't work on a bass in 5ths. Your hand covers a minor third, (E-G on the D string in "first position") and I hesitate to call it "pivoting" or "4 finger technique" because it is just different than in 4ths. In 5ths you keep a small hand and move it when you need to. When I am playing a long G on the D string with my 4th finger, my whole hand is close to that note, and you do not leave your 1st finger all the way back on the E. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about 5ths that 4ths players have, that your hand has to be stretched to cover that minor third at all times. 5ths is about keeping your hand strong. Your thumb does stay pretty "quiet" though and you pivot around it. Some keys suck, especially really low on the instrument, but there isn't really an excessive amount of shifting as one would imagine.
In a lot of keys, I have just over two octaves from a low C to a D in one position, with one shift of a whole tone up and back under my hand. On a 5 string in 4ths, you get almost two octaves to a B with a half position shift. In 4ths with an extension, you have to shift through the extension/use a machine to get the low notes, still have the half position shift for some notes, and then still only up to a B. So, using that logic I occasionally have a whole tone instead of a half tone shift in the lower positions, but compared to 4ths and an extension, It really isn't that much shifting.
A lot of passages are played up/down the string instead of across strings, which leads to slightly more shifting, but often cleaner passages. In fourths, try quickly alternating between an F# on your D string, and an A on your G string by crossing strings. With your first finger on the F#, "pivot" the minor third for the A on the D string. It's infinitely easier for your bow arm, and much easier to be more articulate sounding than with rapid string crossings. A lot of runs that would be across strings in 4ths that are up the string in 5ths do require more command of shifting, but as demonstrated by this little "exercise" fast shifts are often cleaner than fast string crossings.
The "5ths sound" is often considered to be bright, focused, articulate, and very present. The instrument does often open up more in 5ths, and I know my bass got "louder" than it was in 4ths. Joel Quarrington is often championed as the definitive bassist in this school is a fantastic player. Few would argue that he had a small sound when he played in 4ths with a French bow and a machine though. Most people have heard "his sound" on his recordings and as a soloist. Keep in mind that anyone regardless of tuning plays differently as a soloist than with a section, as you are playing a fundamentally different role. As a section leader, Joel does have a lot of presence, but I don't see this as a bad thing. It is an artistic choice. Personally, I would rather have "that sound" than some of the other sounds we heard coming out of bass sections...
Blending with a section has nothing to do with tuning. Musicianship has everything to do with blend, and sometimes your equipment (string choices for example) can help, but Joel definitely sounds like Joel regardless to what bass, bow, or tuning you give him. Ray Brown sounded like Ray Brown and there are tons of stories of him teaching masterclasses and workshops where he picked the worst looking instrument in the room to demonstrate on. Edgar sounds like Edgar, the list goes on.
E-HarmonyTB.com doesn't sound good at all 
I asked because like I said before I am 5 6" and my DB is 43" (Married), and is being a little issue to wrap my hand around it specially in Half position for me an small bass wouldn't sound bad (however I at this point I am used to it), but as Mike stated it should not be a problem playing in 5th, and thanks for Clarifying that is I don't need an extra small bass to play in fifths.
By the way I am trying to incorporate the wrist rotating technique introduce to me By Paul Unger and i think I makes a lot if sense in 4ths or in 5ths, to play with a relax hand instead of trying the hug all the notes at the same time even when you are not playing it.
I wouldn't mind an 5 string bass however the extra thickness of the neck and the pressure of the strings on the top should restrict the bass from vibrating as free as an 4 string and even a 3 string bass, at least to some degree, and it could be a little more difficult to play. but then you have guys playing 5th tuning with 5 strings basses adding an high E string to the mix... ambitious people in this world Lol
I asked because like I said before I am 5 6" and my DB is 43" (Married), and is being a little issue to wrap my hand around it specially in Half position for me an small bass wouldn't sound bad (however I at this point I am used to it), but as Mike stated it should not be a problem playing in 5th, and thanks for Clarifying that is I don't need an extra small bass to play in fifths.
By the way I am trying to incorporate the wrist rotating technique introduce to me By Paul Unger and i think I makes a lot if sense in 4ths or in 5ths, to play with a relax hand instead of trying the hug all the notes at the same time even when you are not playing it.
I wouldn't mind an 5 string bass however the extra thickness of the neck and the pressure of the strings on the top should restrict the bass from vibrating as free as an 4 string and even a 3 string bass, at least to some degree, and it could be a little more difficult to play. but then you have guys playing 5th tuning with 5 strings basses adding an high E string to the mix... ambitious people in this world Lol
I would never commission one before having played on it, but I am curious about a high e string. In theory, it opens up a lot more range and possibilities, but I get the feeling in practice, it would just be way too small of a string.
The top A string in 5ths is fine, but it's a pretty thin string and you need to be careful how you approach it. This is the string most often criticized for that "5ths sound" that people don't like in sections because it can be pretty bright and open sounding compared to a G in 4ths. I could see an e being fun for improvised music, modern music written specifically for the instrument etc. but I guess I don't see it working in more traditional settings, (orchestra sections, jazz "hold down the fort" type playing etc.) as you are rapidly leaving "bass" territory.
I have heard that there are a few of them out there that are shorter scale instruments, or more Hutchins Violin Family type instruments. Silvio Dalla Torre has a "Bassetto" that he uses in a high 5ths tuning, G-D-A-E, but I haven't heard it and have no idea what it's like.
This is all wild speculation, and like I said, I am interested in trying one, but not fully convinced that I will fall in love. As it stands, finding a good 5 string is a ridiculous challenge, so finding one that feels/sounds great AND has been set up in 5ths with a high e? I feel like "needle in a haystack" doesn't begin to describe that quest.
The top A string in 5ths is fine, but it's a pretty thin string and you need to be careful how you approach it. This is the string most often criticized for that "5ths sound" that people don't like in sections because it can be pretty bright and open sounding compared to a G in 4ths. I could see an e being fun for improvised music, modern music written specifically for the instrument etc. but I guess I don't see it working in more traditional settings, (orchestra sections, jazz "hold down the fort" type playing etc.) as you are rapidly leaving "bass" territory.
I have heard that there are a few of them out there that are shorter scale instruments, or more Hutchins Violin Family type instruments. Silvio Dalla Torre has a "Bassetto" that he uses in a high 5ths tuning, G-D-A-E, but I haven't heard it and have no idea what it's like.
This is all wild speculation, and like I said, I am interested in trying one, but not fully convinced that I will fall in love. As it stands, finding a good 5 string is a ridiculous challenge, so finding one that feels/sounds great AND has been set up in 5ths with a high e? I feel like "needle in a haystack" doesn't begin to describe that quest.
If you scroll all the way down to the bottom below the images after you open the link there is a sound clip of the Bassetto with the high E. The string measure is 100cm. He tried as short as 85cm and none were as pleasing as 100cm. The string maker Genssler comments that no matter what tuning, below 100cm string measure and a high E, it is very difficult get a balance between strings going shorter.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
100cm is just a little shy of 39 1/2" if my math is any good. 85cm is more like 33 1/2" though, and is getting closer to a cello than a bass for string length at that point.
If I am not mistaken, Silvio Dalla Torre looks at the "Bassetto" as a fundamentally different instrument than a bass. The recording Chuck mentioned does sound similar to a double bass, but in the upper register sounds very cello like. This isn't a bad thing, but does echo my concern that the high e, even on an instrument with a 39 1/2" string length wouldn't necessarily sound "like a bass" in the sense that it could be used in "traditional" bass roles.
Definitely an interesting instrument and concept, but I don't think I can see it on my "everyday" bass.
If I am not mistaken, Silvio Dalla Torre looks at the "Bassetto" as a fundamentally different instrument than a bass. The recording Chuck mentioned does sound similar to a double bass, but in the upper register sounds very cello like. This isn't a bad thing, but does echo my concern that the high e, even on an instrument with a 39 1/2" string length wouldn't necessarily sound "like a bass" in the sense that it could be used in "traditional" bass roles.
Definitely an interesting instrument and concept, but I don't think I can see it on my "everyday" bass.
I agree with you Mike. I think the idea of a 5 with high E is interesting and would love to mess with it. I think it would work great for some things, but would be a different voice than what we are used to. That would be the point of it in the first place, but also it's down side. Definitely would not dump the bass I have to make the change to 5 strings in fifths, but I am curious about what it would offer.
That's a really great recording, and definitely what I would use such an instrument for. His recording of the Koussevitzky is played absolutely wonderfully, and I mean no harm by saying the following: to my ears, it sounds almost like a bass concerto played on a cello, or on a Bassetto, or some other variation of an in between instrument.
He is a fantastic musician, and I would really love a chance to play the instrument sometime. Listening to the recordings of the AKDuo as well, it seems to be very similar to the cello, although you can definitely pick the two apart. It is a fantastic instrument in the context he uses it in, and I would definitely enjoy playing that kind of music on that type of instrument. Unfortunately, I would have to be doing significantly more chamber music than I am now to justify a second instrument.
He is a fantastic musician, and I would really love a chance to play the instrument sometime. Listening to the recordings of the AKDuo as well, it seems to be very similar to the cello, although you can definitely pick the two apart. It is a fantastic instrument in the context he uses it in, and I would definitely enjoy playing that kind of music on that type of instrument. Unfortunately, I would have to be doing significantly more chamber music than I am now to justify a second instrument.
rjspear
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- Apr 23, 2011
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Fools rush in, as they say, so stand aside!!
If you look at the modern string family, you will see a disrupted tendency to have the lowest string be either a C or a G. If you recall that the cello is historically the bass of the violin family (the original contrabass is a gamba), the tuning is CGDA. I am one of those who thinks that our double bass should be tuned the same way as the instrument it doubles, so humor me a bit longer and pretend our orchestra bass is tuned CGDA one octave lower than the cello. This means that there is an instrument missing between the cello (bass) and the contrabass, and that it should be in high 5ths tuning GDAE.
At one time such basses were so common in Europe that there were names for them, sous-basse in French, halb-bass in German, and bassetto in Italian. There is a feeling that over time we have made gains in the string world, but I can tell you as a luthier that we have lost more, including instruments like the soprano violin, the big alto violin, the tenor violin, and the small bass violin.
A bass with a high E string is one way to start overcoming this deficiency. It would be hard not to like this instrument if you could play one. One of its principal advantages would be that it blends seamlessly with the instruments above it, and, believe me, it is a mistake for us to play an instrument that is intended not to blend with other stringed instruments. It would also open the world of chamber music to the bass players, and it would encourage composers to write good stuff. I mean, how many times can you play the Trout Quintet before it starts feeling a little old? It's also small and fast and easy to travel with. If you compare it with a standard fourths bass with a low E, you're only giving up the E, F, and F#. I've had two small basses in an orchestra I've played in, and they are surprisingly useful instruments. I feel that anything a bass player can do to make him or herself more useful is a good thing.
Given the current state of things, many bassists can't afford two basses, so I can easily see the attraction in having a 3/4-size, 5-string bass tuned in fifths CGDAE. There are a few guys out there like Paul Unger and Tomoya Aomori who play on instruments set up this way, so I'll leave it to them to comment more directly on it. But there's no doubt that having the high E makes it easy to play any orchestral passage. It also gives a new sound for jazz pizzicato work. What's not to like?
If you look at the modern string family, you will see a disrupted tendency to have the lowest string be either a C or a G. If you recall that the cello is historically the bass of the violin family (the original contrabass is a gamba), the tuning is CGDA. I am one of those who thinks that our double bass should be tuned the same way as the instrument it doubles, so humor me a bit longer and pretend our orchestra bass is tuned CGDA one octave lower than the cello. This means that there is an instrument missing between the cello (bass) and the contrabass, and that it should be in high 5ths tuning GDAE.
At one time such basses were so common in Europe that there were names for them, sous-basse in French, halb-bass in German, and bassetto in Italian. There is a feeling that over time we have made gains in the string world, but I can tell you as a luthier that we have lost more, including instruments like the soprano violin, the big alto violin, the tenor violin, and the small bass violin.
A bass with a high E string is one way to start overcoming this deficiency. It would be hard not to like this instrument if you could play one. One of its principal advantages would be that it blends seamlessly with the instruments above it, and, believe me, it is a mistake for us to play an instrument that is intended not to blend with other stringed instruments. It would also open the world of chamber music to the bass players, and it would encourage composers to write good stuff. I mean, how many times can you play the Trout Quintet before it starts feeling a little old? It's also small and fast and easy to travel with. If you compare it with a standard fourths bass with a low E, you're only giving up the E, F, and F#. I've had two small basses in an orchestra I've played in, and they are surprisingly useful instruments. I feel that anything a bass player can do to make him or herself more useful is a good thing.
Given the current state of things, many bassists can't afford two basses, so I can easily see the attraction in having a 3/4-size, 5-string bass tuned in fifths CGDAE. There are a few guys out there like Paul Unger and Tomoya Aomori who play on instruments set up this way, so I'll leave it to them to comment more directly on it. But there's no doubt that having the high E makes it easy to play any orchestral passage. It also gives a new sound for jazz pizzicato work. What's not to like?
For me is not like I wouldn't like to have an extra E string on my bass... for me is the Extra thick neck and the presume extra pressure on the top that will restrain the bass from vibrating as free as a 4 string bass.
And well at some point the increasing difficult to bow 5 strings.
Also for that string E to work well, we may be we are talking about smaller scale bass. 40-38"
Now also the good things are:
1-Wider range
2-You will have a lot more notes under the same position & don't have to reach high register till the end of the finger board.
3-Including the bass more into chamber music (GREAT Thing)
4-Good for solo playing.
Mr.Spear I also notice that your basses rib's are not at big as traditional basses could you please tell us more about that?
Thanks
That wasn't said by Genssler or Silvio. It was the opposite. He said 'SMALLER' than 39.37 string measure was not good for a high E. Silvio's intial Bassetto was 3/4 bass with a 41 inch string measure. He tried to use Hutchins shorter string scale as a model and found it not be to his or Genssler's liking because of the lack of balance between the HIGH E and the other strings. I'm just thinking out loud here but since the E is thinner, wouldn't that make a conversion of an instrument to 5 string easier? I think if there was a way to split the difference on the set up and make the high E removable and vice a versa on the fly for different performances it would be cool. Is that a possibility?
Good question. What I got from Silvio's description of the whole process was that he doesn't think there is that much difference between 100cm and 105cm when it comes to playability. Genssler prefers longer string lengths. He can make strings of varying widths without affecting the tension. So, I think he can make an E for 105cm. How much difference is there. Silvio prefers thinner strings on all his basses. That he did say though.
Correct to keep the same tension on Various Widths we need to change the thinness of the string (The mass)... the longer the scale the thinner the string should be to be tuned to the same note in this case E, and the also is true the other way around.
So Silvio D. Have two options:
1-To get a thicker String so we can have the same tension as Genssler.
2- or a Thinner one but with less tension.
but if Genssler & Silvio both use the same tension Silvio need a thicker string.
I hope that I am right!
