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Double Bass Tuning in 5ths vs. a five string

#41
Eric Hochberg said:
That wasn't what I meant, of course the notes are all there. My point had to do with the fact, I'll say it again, that reading music note for note (4ths or 5ths) is a different experience than playing your own stuff. It may have many technical challenges not encountered when we are left to our own devices, as we are 90% of the time in jazz. Funny you mention Tierney, I did a little tour with her. She's one of the best in the biz, IMO.

I'm teaching a doctoral cello student bass guitar and jazz. I suggested she tune in 5ths, as that is what she is used to, but she insists on learning bass the "right" way.
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Thanks for the clarification Eric, there is no getting around the history of the instrument in jazz and it's common tuning of fourths! I'd also say that playing at least a few gigs without an amp and with the action a bit on the high side by todays standards can give quite a bit of insight into note choices and the approach of some of the greats. Agreed, reading is a different experience than improvising, regardless of tuning.
Yea, Tierney is great- I used to sub for Trey occaisionally when I was still around L.A., always looked forward to playing Christian Jacob in that situation too....:D
 
#42
Interesting thread. It got me thinking whether or not a player who tunes in fourths would realize any benefit from a 38" string length instead of a 41.5" length. I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be much. For a player who tunes in fifths, however, the benefits are dramatic. I'm assuming you fifths-tuners out there are not using whole-hand shifts ala Simandl, but rather some form of pivoting thumb. The shorter scale makes this much easier in low positions, and in the middle positions and up, you can play complete triads with three fingers down.

I also built a fifths-tuned chamber bass with a 32" string length as a way for bassists to really integrate themselves into the world of chamber music. The lowest note is G, a fourth below the cello. I designed the bass for myself, and since I was trained to play seated on a stool, that's what I tried to do. Every other bassist who tried it prefered to sit behind it cello-style, and eventually I came to agree with their choice. I'll post some links if anyone is interested in seeing/hearing it.
 
#44
rjspear said:
...I'm assuming you fifths-tuners out there are not using whole-hand shifts ala Simandl, but rather some form of pivoting thumb. The shorter scale makes this much easier in low positions, and in the middle positions and up, you can play complete triads with three fingers down.
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When i play in fifths i actually use whole hand shifts and a "sort of" pivot in combination. for slower, more melodic work, there's no reason you can't get your hand as condensed as possible and get a thick, beefy, left hand tone, but when passages speed up i switch to a quasi- four finger approach (1-3-4 or 1-2-4 as the notes are needed). the fingerings i use on 5ths bass have actually helped my left hand in some ways on 4ths bass. for example, using 1-3 for half steps in lower positions, in certain circumstances of course. 1-3-4 is a little silly in my personal opinion. but playing a G major scale as 3-0-1-3-0-1-2-4 sounds great, and the 1-3 interval is really comfy for the half step!

eerbrev
 
#45
engedi1 said:
if 40 sucks, I could only imagine the finale of 35 is WAY improved in fifths. If you have ever watched a cellist play 35 and then a bassists in 4ths, that is all you need to know. It is all in "first position" for the cello, they barely move their hands...
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Yeah, but the scale length of a cello is about 28" - same as a 1/10 size double bass.

The difference is about 13-14", when comparing a cello to a 3/4 size double bass -- this is why the double bass is tuned in fourths.

Tuned to fifths, the shifting would be insane on a double bass.
 
#49
Chris Symer said:
Right off the bat I can tell you that the first 5 bars after letter B of the first movment always make me glad that I'm in fifths.:D
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You had ORIGINALLY stated: "I could only imagine the finale of 35 is WAY improved in fifths"

Now you are in the first movement.

:confused:

Which is it?
 
#50
Here are some links-- hope I got them right!:hmm:

1) A picture of the chamber bass being played seated [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] then click on the "basses" tab.

2) A demo of the bass with other New Family instruments
Anthony Stoops is playing this bass after only a few hours practice. The big sub-contra on the left is another one of my early experimental basses.

Enjoy. Feedback good or not is always welcome.
 
#51
I clic on the tread without nowing it was in DB section. For the record I played double bass during my college degree in music.

As of late I was wondering why DB and BG isn't tuned in fifth because why the lowest note on the staff is only one bar ( don't know the right name in english ) below while the cello goes way lower.

I tried it on my 4 strings BG to learn Bach's 6 suites. Much much much easier in fifth ... this is how I started to think like that.
 
#54
I would imagine that you would spend more time adjusting to tuning in fifths then you would adjusting to a B string. If you don't mind relearning everything then I say go for it, but to me it makes more sense to just buy a 5 stringer and spend a couple of days adjusting.
 
#55
Stick_Player said:
Looking at it right now... WHERE would it be significantly easier - measure numbers?

Then I'll try it.
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I've started a bit of a negative tangent here by misinterpreting what you said. I thought you were speaking about shifting in fifths all the time, not just in the particular passage in Mozart 35. I have no experience playing mozart symphonies in 5ths (though I would imagine many of things being easier, such as the overture to the magic flute, specifically the motive).

I was speaking specifically to the idea of people just assuming that shifting, etc in fifths would be difficult due to scale length, and the honest answer is that sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't (not saying that you are one of these people. that would be mildly offensive). F# major sucks on 4ths Bass, C# major sucks on 5ths bass. you can practice the both of them and be competent with them, but it doesn't mean they suck any less on their specific instruments. The only plausible way to know whether or not 5ths is for you or not is to try it. It might be, it might not be, I don't know.

I'm definitely Pro-5ths, having heard it live as a solo, small ensemble and orchestral instrument. I've also had the opportunity to see it played side by side with a 4ths instrument in an orchestral concert (several times, though I couldn't tell you specific rep. i think some examples were Dvorak 9, Firebird suite, Bach Orchestral suite [the one tha Badinerie exerpt comes from]) and in terms of shifting, the amount is probably the same, just shifting in different places.

is it for everyone? well, I think it could be, but there will always be people who learned one way and just don't want to change, which is understandable. But my thoughts are worth as much as you've paid for them.

eerbrev
 
#56
eerbrev said:
I've started a bit of a negative tangent here by misinterpreting what you said....
eerbrev
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Don't beat yourself up over it. I think the point some of us are trying to make here is that certain standard rep - Mozart in particular - is already almost impossible to play with standard setup, even though we've been studying it for a long time and have the benefit of everyone else's work on it. I think it is generally agreed that very scaler passages like you see in Figaro and Haffner finale are most successfully attacked with modern fingerings which reduce shifting as much as possible. Changing to fifths tuning means not only more shifts, but it puts you out on your own as far as exploiting the knowledge base.

I did experiment with C-G-D-G for a short time. I found that many things did get easier. Certain Strauss excerpts, for example, and in the Beethoven V Trio the first low G is on an open string which you don't need to cross to! But, I just didn't see ever being able to play the important Mozart excerpts this way. Also, how are you going to play the finale of Brahms II when you can't produce a major third without a shift? I'm sure that these excerpts are possible in fifths, and have no doubt that guys like JQ can do them way better than me even with this hurdle, but what about you? If you think you have what it takes to make this work, then go for it brother! All the other guys at the orchestra audition will have the benefit of tradition working for them, but maybe originality will work for you. Who knows? Maybe a better Don Juan would offset a shaky Figaro.
 
#57
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, robobass. I've got my experiences and opinions, and you have yours. I don't find that I shift excessively more in 5ths when practicing orch rep (not that I do it that often, I practice it in 4ths bass most of the time for school) and having seen a 4ths and 5ths bass next to each other in concert from a good vantage point I can say that from what I saw it was not a matter or more shifting for one or the other, but when one was shifting vs the other. One thing I will note is that the KIND of movement is different. I find most movement on 4ths bass is across the strings, whereas most of the movement on 5ths bass is up and down the string, even on lower strings. This may seem odd, but on a 5ths bass, all of the notes on the lower strings seem to be more useable. It's not uncommon to see one of my 5ths bass buddies play something up in thumb position on his low G string because he thinks that it sounds better in context up there.

I dig it, but I'm me, and you're you, and i doubt we will convince each other. I have pretty strongly negative views on extensions, but I generally keep them to myself because i know many people rely on them on a daily basis and see them as a necessary evil. You found 5ths didn't work for you for your reasons and like using your extension ( at least I assume so, you make a product for them! :D). I also assume you play relatively well with an extension and have great success with it, because you advocate for it well.

*insert some sort of jack sprat analogy here*

We totally kind of dropped the whole side of 5 string bass though. whoops? Sorry OP.

eerbrev
 
#58
eerbrev said:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, robobass.
eerbrev
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You're not getting off the hook that easily! The fact that you have the rare brain that allows you to work in both tunings simultaneously makes you a perfect guinea pig and researcher for the fourths vs. fifths debate. I implore you to study the standard excerpts in both tunings in depth, and see what fingering solutions you can come up with for fifths tuning, especially on the Mozart and Brahms passages, which would be presumably the most difficult in fifths tuning. Your location seems to be a hotbed of fifths tuners, and the fact that you are still studying means that you could use all of this research to create an important scholarly paper on the subject!

We bass players are rather stodgy creatures. If we are to start thinking about very radical ideas like changing our tuning, then there needs to be some very convincing evidence and thorough documentation that this is a good idea.

We don't need to disagree on anything. If audition excerpts can be played in fifths then I'm all for it. I just need some clues on how some of these excerpts can be done!
 
#59
But shouldn't it mean something for us doublebassists playing an octave below the cello, which is a fifths-tuned instrument? At least one player told me that music of this type is no more difficult and in some cases is actually easier to play in fifths tuning. Ignoring for the moment keys heavy in sharps or flats that take open strings away from basses in either tuning, is the argument about six of one and half a dozen of the other? I'd bet that a shorter string length and well-developed left-hand technique would give bassists a couple of powerful tools.
 
#60
rjspear said:
But shouldn't it mean something for us doublebassists playing an octave below the cello, which is a fifths-tuned instrument?
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This. 4ths tuning has always been a compromise ever since the bass was invented. It was originally intended to be tuned like a cello, only an octave lower. It's easy to see considering parts were written for cello & bass on one page. However, the limitations of gut were a big factor in tuning in 4ths.

All the other strings are in 5ths, why not the bass?
 

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