Tuning to E flat for songs originally written that way -do you do it?

[lowendfriend]

The whole point of using an Eb bass rather than a 5 string is you get to take adavantage of the open strings and play the song in position that is a bit more comfortable to play. On a 4 hr cover gig, you never know when your singer might need you to pick up those Eb if he/she is not feeling exactly up to snuff.

There is probably the underlying philosophy difference for many 4 vs 5 playing decisions....what you think about open string playing. I find it a pain in the ***. Thus I roll with the 5-er.

Don't need to tune down....use closed fingering.....changing keys is a shrug and downbeat.

 

[EagleMoon]

I would get a 5 string but my tendinitis makes it difficult enough to play a 4 string.

I've heard cover bands play songs transposted up from the original D or E flat in E and it just doesn't sound the same. Maybe other people can't tell as much, but to me it really sounds odd. I'd rather play the songs in the key they were originally recorded but tuning down does make the strings floppy and I'd rather not go with heavier strings due to the above reason.

 

[etherealme]

This. I hate these non standart tunings. The strings feel so sloppy.
Also, if the singer can't sing, he shouldn't sing. I mean, if half step makes that much of a difference to him, or her, then it is because he is struggling to sing the songs, and has the wrong range for these songs. I really hate when I am asked to adapt my playing and my instrument to a bad singer.

What do you think the singer is doing for you? Adapting to your playing, no? It's much easier to retune your bass than ask the singer to sing in a different key.

I have a bass kept all tuned down for anything that calls for flat tunings, keeps the patterns the same, though I do use Drop-D, I don't use it for Eb stuff.

A few times, where the only bass I had was Eb, and I needed standard tuning, I've used a capo on the 1st fret.

THIS

 

[AbsoluteFunk]

when ever this situation arrises as long as vocals and guitar are happy will play the song in Eb but just on a 5 string BEADG job done!

 

[electracoyote]

Half a step isn't much...but it's enough to screw with your bass set-up.

This is true. Quick remedy: Go up to the next thicker string gauge with your Eb-tuned bass. The extra tension from the thicker gauge usually gets you right back in the ballpark. Worst-case scenario, you do a quick saddle height adjust. My Eb bass didn't even require a truss rod adjustment.

EDIT: I just noticed your tendinitis issue. You can tune to Eb with the string gauge you're comfortable with, and it may require a slight adjustment to the truss rod (loosen) and the saddle heights (raised) for action. I emphasize SLIGHT adjustment, it won't take much. And it's a small price to pay IMHO.

 

[nsmar4211]

Eaglemoon:

I deal with tendonitis myself, and it makes no difference if I'm playing the 5 or the 4 stringer as to when it'll flare. What bass do you use? If it's a passive, have you considered an active? You can turn the volume up on an active and play with a nice light touch and then string guage and count won't matter as much
I also play with wrist sweatbands (nice and tight, but not so tight to cut off circulation) if it's feeling like it's going to flare.

As for the original question, I've never retuned during a gig. I have two main basses, one set up in E and one in Eb. If I'm going to a jam, the E comes. Caveat: I play a 5, so Eb songs at a jam I just use the B string.
My first rock group is downtuned to make it easier on the singer, some of the songs that are originally in Eb she sounds best singing in Eb and there's enough of those I don't want to always be hanging out on the B string. However, one thing we do is call out notes as if we were in standard to save any brain confusion issues. I.e. if the guitarist says to me, it's in D and I play a D, it's really in C and I'm playing a C. Works well! I never switch basses in that one, if it's in standard I just go up a 1/2 step. Sometimes it would sound better if I switched, but I learned em on the Eb fingering and don't want to relearn LOL.

My other rock group plays mostly standard tuned stuff, but I bring the downtuned backup in case we want to do something tuned down. And when we do, we group them and either end the set or start the set with em so me and the guitarist aren't switching around constantly.

I did have to reset up the bass that's tuned down permanently to accomodate the B string floppyness. My original main bass fought me tooth and nail on being in Eb so it only stays in standard. My current main bass handles either tuning equally well (yea!) so it gets retuned depending on which band I'm playing with, and I switch the backups around depending on the group I'm with.

The only pita part is when I'm originally learning the songs if we're downtuning a song that's standard. What I do then is learn it on a standard tuned bass, then when I move to the downtuned the fingering is the same . I have also used Audition to change the key of the song when I'm learning it but whew sometimes that messes with your head.

BTW, I am a woman with smaller hands and don't have any major problems with the 5-the 5's I use aren't that much wider than a 4 . I did try a 6 once and ferget it, I'll play guitar if I want six cause that fretboard is wayyyy too wide

Oh and who ever said "it's just a halfstep".... it does make a difference singing if it's on the edge of your range or it's a song you've heard 1000 times in xx tuning and its in your head that way.

 

[tycobb73]

In my current band - no. I don't want to take the time to change guitars. I like to go 4-5 songs into one another and not take a break.

In my last band, yes. 4 or 5 of those songs were strung together at the end of a set. Problem with this is it limits set variety.

 

[EagleMoon]

I find it interesting that most people seem to be detuning the entire bass rather than using a D-Tuner.

Nsmar4211, every 5 string bass I've played has bothered me, but to be honest I've probably only played about half a dozen different ones. There very well could be one out there that doesn't bother me. My regular bass is a Sadowsky RV4, and I have the action low as it can go and still play well for me. It is an active bass. I've not tried the sweatbands. Why do you think that helps?

 

[Richland123]

We never detune for any songs. If a song is written in Eb, we play it in Eb. Since the songs we play are usually in standard tunings anyway, we do not see the point in retuning just to play one song in a set.

 

[tycobb73]

I find it interesting that most people seem to be detuning the entire bass rather than using a D-Tuner.

I use a 5 so I don't change tunings. But I told the guitarists I don't want them retuning. The only exception is to drop D so we have a choice of doing an Eb song a half step up or down.

 

[lowendfriend]

get bestPractice software and listen to it in E with the speed slightly reduce (say 95%).

Pretty hard to tell the difference after you listen a few times.

 

[Stumbo]

get bestPractice software and listen to it in E with the speed slightly reduce (say 95%).

Best Practice can adjust for pitch.

From Best Practice help file:

Best Practice: is a tool to slow down or speed up music, either from a wave file, an MP3 file or directly from a CD. The thing is, that ordinarily the sound is distorted when slowed down our sped up - you get the effect like when playing a 45 rpm record on 33 rpm speed. BestPractice tries to correct this, so you can slow down and speed up music, while keeping the original tune. Since version 0.3 you can also change the pitch of the music without affecting its length.


Possible scenarios where BestPractice can be of help:
· Your favorite musician plays a solo that you want to study, but you can't figure it out on normal speed
· You'd like to transcribe music, but need to slow it down to hear it right
· You can tune the song to your instrument instead of the other way around
· You'd like to sing along, but you need to change the key to match your voice
· You're learning a foreign language and you'd like to slow down the spoken examples
· You're like me and like to fool around with audio and/or digital signal processing
· You think that playing Celine Dion at rave speed is fun =D

FYI: BP (v.1.03) allows the user to:
1) slow down a tune an octave while raising the pitch an octave. This great for hearing bass lines much better while slowed down.
2) Isolate the bass
3) Isolate the treble (make your own backing tracks)
4) Remove vocals (to the extent that it can)
5) Always loops of any length
6) Save slowed down files as .wav files

 

[Snakeman1066]

I play Stoner/Doom so I'm always tuned down...lol

 

[EagleMoon]

Best Practice can adjust for pitch.

From Best Practice help file:

Best Practice: is a tool to slow down or speed up music, either from a wave file, an MP3 file or directly from a CD. The thing is, that ordinarily the sound is distorted when slowed down our sped up - you get the effect like when playing a 45 rpm record on 33 rpm speed. BestPractice tries to correct this, so you can slow down and speed up music, while keeping the original tune. Since version 0.3 you can also change the pitch of the music without affecting its length.


Possible scenarios where BestPractice can be of help:
· Your favorite musician plays a solo that you want to study, but you can't figure it out on normal speed
· You'd like to transcribe music, but need to slow it down to hear it right
· You can tune the song to your instrument instead of the other way around
· You'd like to sing along, but you need to change the key to match your voice
· You're learning a foreign language and you'd like to slow down the spoken examples
· You're like me and like to fool around with audio and/or digital signal processing
· You think that playing Celine Dion at rave speed is fun =D

FYI: BP (v.1.03) allows the user to:
1) slow down a tune an octave while raising the pitch an octave. This great for hearing bass lines much better while slowed down.
2) Isolate the bass
3) Isolate the treble (make your own backing tracks)
4) Remove vocals (to the extent that it can)
5) Always loops of any length
6) Save slowed down files as .wav files

I've never heard of this. Do you have a link? It sounds interesting.

 

[electracoyote]

I just got my set lists for tomorrow night's gig. We are doing half and half each set, standard to Eb tuning. The guitarist and I will switch guitars once in the middle of each set.

I once tried to talk the band into just going with one tuning all night. Pick one I said, standard or Eb. We have a female lead with a great voice and excellent range, I don't think it would matter much to her.

For some reason, my idea got shot down. Whatever.

 

[nsmar4211]

EagleMoon: I'm no doctor, but I think it's a combo of heat and pressure that make the sweatbands help. I'm calling them sweat bands, but my favorite ones are the cloth ones the kids were favoring for a while-here they sell them in Hot Topic and Claire's and that kind of mall store. I just have to check and make sure they are snug, some of them are sized too big. It really does help, first twinge and I slap them on and I leave them on until it doesn't ache anymore (I do turn the wilder colored ones inside out when I'm at work LOL). Ibuprophen is what I was prescribed when I went to the doctor, 800 mg twice a day...also helps.

I've also worn a "tendonitis" brace thingie that was basically a strap that went right below your elbow (hand side of the joint not shoulder). Got it at walgreens, it also helped if I left it on all day. Didn't look as gig worthy as the sweatbands though...and honestly it got itchy underneat, maybe because it was neoprene. The one brand had air pockets that put pressure in a certain area. I've seen my teacher wear something similar too when his acted up (and he only plays a 4 LOL).

My 5ers are either Ibanez or Peavey Millenium brands... they have pretty narrow necks for a 5. If you put their own 4's next to them, you can see the string spacing is tighter. If you pop and slap, you can still do it but if you're used to a 4 spacing it'll take a couple practices to get it down... but then no prob!

Have you had anyone (or a camera) watch your technique? I know my tendonitis acts up more if I'm not paying attention and let my fingers get lazy or over excited...


electraloyte: It may not be your singers voice or range that is the deal breaker......to guitarists and singers some songs just sound wrong in a different key. Personally, I didn't even realize this until I tried singing a couple of songs I know well in a different key.....messes with your ear/head

 

[Darkstrike]

I find it interesting that most people seem to be detuning the entire bass rather than using a D-Tuner.

Part of the upside of having a tuned down bass, is not just the Eb, but the open Ab etc, I used to jam a lot of GNR covers, and a lot of the songs you need to be able to pedal the open Eb and the Ab.

I use a 5 so I don't change tunings. But I told the guitarists I don't want them retuning. The only exception is to drop D so we have a choice of doing an Eb song a half step up or down.

I mostly play a 5er now, and as often as not, I'll tune that flat too, playing the riffs on the B string sounds fatter and bassier, not always a good thing, depending on the song.

 

[thehangingmist]

only if the singer wants to sing half step down, then the whole set is half step down

 

[Skylark]

I've tuned ALL of my basses down a WHOLE step from conventional tuning since 1981-82 (with one exception). I did it to cover popular recordings wherein the bass went down to an Eb, but I thought it would be too strange to tune Eb - Ab - Db - Gb so I went down another half-step. I liked what it did to the sound AND the playability. It's no biggie (although it might take some adjustment if you have to "unlearn" a bunch of sight-reading chops).

D - G - C - F, lo to hi

D - G - C - F - Bb on my 34" scale 5-string, a graphite-necked Alembic Series II. This bass is impervious to virtually ANY string tension. I have even kept it tuned A - Eb - A - Eb - A.

A - D - G - C - F on my 35" scale 5-string

I also have a 4-string tuned A - D - G - C.

My ONLY conventionally-tuned axe is a passive P-Bass type, which I string with flatwounds. My "classic sound" bass.

It's your axe, tune it however you want! Who says you have to tune ANY particular way? And who CARES if someone DOES say it? We're MUSICIANS. We're notoriously unconventional!!

Have FUN!

 

[EagleMoon]

EagleMoon: I'm no doctor, but I think it's a combo of heat and pressure that make the sweatbands help. I'm calling them sweat bands, but my favorite ones are the cloth ones the kids were favoring for a while-here they sell them in Hot Topic and Claire's and that kind of mall store. I just have to check and make sure they are snug, some of them are sized too big. It really does help, first twinge and I slap them on and I leave them on until it doesn't ache anymore (I do turn the wilder colored ones inside out when I'm at work LOL). Ibuprophen is what I was prescribed when I went to the doctor, 800 mg twice a day...also helps.

I do the ibuprofen too but try not to do it too often. My stomach doesn't like it. But I'll to see if I can find the sweatbands. I know what you're talking about.

I've also worn a "tendonitis" brace thingie that was basically a strap that went right below your elbow (hand side of the joint not shoulder). Got it at walgreens, it also helped if I left it on all day. Didn't look as gig worthy as the sweatbands though...and honestly it got itchy underneat, maybe because it was neoprene. The one brand had air pockets that put pressure in a certain area. I've seen my teacher wear something similar too when his acted up (and he only plays a 4 LOL).

Oh yeah, I know what those are. I've seen people wear them but I thought they were for carpal tunnel. I do try to do exercises because I know some of my problem is from my neck, which pinches the nerve in my arm.

My 5ers are either Ibanez or Peavey Millenium brands... they have pretty narrow necks for a 5. If you put their own 4's next to them, you can see the string spacing is tighter. If you pop and slap, you can still do it but if you're used to a 4 spacing it'll take a couple practices to get it down... but then no prob!

I don't slap at all, so narrow spacing wouldn't bother me. I've never tried a Millennium, though I've had several Peavey basses in the past. I'll check one out.

Have you had anyone (or a camera) watch your technique? I know my tendonitis acts up more if I'm not paying attention and let my fingers get lazy or over excited...

No not really. I actually have less trouble standing with a strap rather than sitting down playing. When I sit playing then I get lazy, which is why I try to spend more time standing..but then that aggravates my shoulder. LOL Can't win.

electraloyte: It may not be your singers voice or range that is the deal breaker......to guitarists and singers some songs just sound wrong in a different key. Personally, I didn't even realize this until I tried singing a couple of songs I know well in a different key.....messes with your ear/head

I'm going to respond to this too because this is exactly what I meant in my first post. Changing the key of some songs just messes with your head and they don't sound right. I wasn't saying that the singer couldn't handle it or that I coudln't handle singing it. They just sound wrong.