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Tuning to E flat for songs originally written that way -do you do it?

#83
"All of my strings are at 1/32" @ 20th fret in E standard.

And no, I don't get any fret buzz. At all."

You measured your string height?! Wow..... never done that :) I just set it up till it's comfortable LOL
Now, go detune your bass...any buzz? (that was the point of my low action post....if your action is really low in E and you detune to Eb you may have issues).... :) If not, good bass :)

It's kinda funny, there's several artists we've found as we're looking at live version of songs who don't play in the key they've recorded in. Shoot, I smell a new thread LOL
 
#84
Vic Winters said:
What about bands like Metallica or Jane's Addiction that now drop tune their stuff that was originally in standard? Should they stop playing their hits because they can't sing them in the original key?
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No, they shouldn't. But it is lame. :p
Actually, if it is just a few notes, they could just change the melodies just a bit, like Elton John did after his throat cirgury. It is much better then playing the whole song in a lower key.
Also, original bands are different, it is usually because of the age that they change the keys. The real bad thing is when we see 19 years old boys asking for you to tune down.
 
#85
I'm resurrecting this thread because I realized I'm facing this same issue again with a new singer. He says it helps his voice to tune down half a step but how can semi-tone make that much difference? Some songs just sound odd when played down a half step. Plus it's really messing with my head. I'm one of those people who learn a song and can sing it in the correct key without hearing it beforehand. So it messes with my head to play it in a flat key. Anyone else have this problem?
 
#87
EagleMoon said:
I'm resurrecting this thread because I realized I'm facing this same issue again with a new singer. He says it helps his voice to tune down half a step but how can semi-tone make that much difference? Some songs just sound odd when played down a half step. Plus it's really messing with my head. I'm one of those people who learn a song and can sing it in the correct key without hearing it beforehand. So it messes with my head to play it in a flat key. Anyone else have this problem?
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Hey Pat, thanks for this thread! I ran into this situation back in the late 80's when I first started playing around the Cincinnati area. I was in a acoustic/electric trio playing the bar scene (Clifton, 2nd Street, Mt. Adams) 4-6 nights/week.

Tuning to Eb helped the Lead save on strings, playing, and singing (for me as well). It bugged me at first for the same reasons you and others have described in this thread. I believed (at the time) if you could not do the song as recorded, then don't do it! Some songs really don't sound right in another key! :ninja:

I got over my issues with the alternate tunings because we were playing so much, and, it didn't seem to matter to the patrons! I mean we played No Sugar Tonight, by the Guess Who, in some wierd key (plus we we tuned to Eb) and it was unrecognizable until the chorus, but NOBODY cared!! :eyebrow:

Now, I play out with a 5 and a short scale 4 and songs are played in whatever key, as long as we sound good, it's all good! :D

I guess what I am trying to say is, you can make anything work. You have to decide if it is worth the effort to make it work...

And it's OK if you'all don't change keys!!! :hyper: :bassist: :cool:

Russ
 
#88
I've said it before and in other threads, MOST successful bands, or at least known bands, play tuned down a half step. The Smithereens are a great example.

It makes it easier for a whole bunch of stuff, and you normally don't have to make any neck tweaks or set up changes. Just play the bass as if the Eb string is E.

I do it live and have for almost two decades now. I'm not ashamed to say that yes, half a step does significantly save your voice and does make it easier overall to play.

Otherwise, go buy yourself a Kubicki Ex-Factor. ;-)
 
#89
Changing the key of a song to match up with a vocalist's range is SOP for jazz. Why not for rock?

As far as the "sound" of song being changed by changing the key, most people don't have perfect pitch and memory so I wouldn't worry about any song sounding "weird" because the key has changed. It may be odd to some musicians but I think that setting the proper key for a vocalist takes precedence over what you hear in your head as "normal".

I think that even the song writers may set the key to match the vocalist's range when the song is written rather than the other way around. I've seen many acoustic players use capos to easily accomplish this.
 
#90
Stumbo said:
Changing the key of a song to match up with a vocalist's range is SOP for jazz. Why not for rock?

As far as the "sound" of song being changed by changing the key, most people don't have perfect pitch and memory so I wouldn't worry about any song sounding "weird" because the key has changed. It may be odd to some musicians but I think that setting the proper key for a vocalist takes precedence over what you hear in your head as "normal".

I think that even the song writers may set the key to match the vocalist's range when the song is written rather than the other way around. I've seen many acoustic players use capos to easily accomplish this.
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+1.

I have a relatively successful songwriting team as well and we constantly are writing material for a specific artist or band. One right now we are righting for is a young lady who seems to be better when we right songs in G. I constantly write in E, so its always a fun challenge.

Either way, tuning down a half step shouldn't even matter. You still finger the darn chords and notes the same place in the same way.
 
#91
TRichardsbass said:
+1.

I have a relatively successful songwriting team as well and we constantly are writing material for a specific artist or band. One right now we are righting for is a young lady who seems to be better when we right songs in G. I constantly write in E, so its always a fun challenge.

Either way, tuning down a half step shouldn't even matter. You still finger the darn chords and notes the same place in the same way.
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Shouldn't matter? It just doesn't sound right to me. That's the major problem. I have a hard time wrapping my head around playing half a step down when I hear the song in my head in the original key. Singing is a bit of a warp too. Plus I think it makes the band sound really heavy.
 
#94
TRichardsbass said:
Either way, tuning down a half step shouldn't even matter. You still finger the darn chords and notes the same place in the same way.
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As someone who has spent 38 years developing fretless-only skills, my head would be exploding if I weren't laughing so hard. I'll consider down-tuning the day my acoustic piano player does.;)
 
#96
Passinwind said:
As someone who has spent 38 years developing fretless-only skills, my head would be exploding if I weren't laughing so hard. I'll consider down-tuning the day my acoustic piano player does.;)
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Different thought pattern, so hope you didn't laugh yourself and get hurt! LOL!

If you play fretless and are used to using "perfect pitch" listening skills then yes, an Eb and an E are clearly going to effect you. However, if everyone is actually tuned down (which of course normally doesn't happen with a piano) then when someone starts the night with an E chord, but the guitar and bass are both down half a step, then the E will sound the same for everyone.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that someone can only sing and play a song EXACTLY as they hear it or it was originally recorded. Especially given that if you listen to vinyl, you are subject to the actual rate of rotation of the turntable, so on my turntable it might be slightly faster (therefore higher) and on yours it might be slightly slower (therefore lower) then the actual E. Digital recording is a little different as you don't experience those issues, but songs today are so played with via the mixing and mastering process that I'm sure there are a lot of things that are actually a step higher on the final mix then on the actual original recording. Hey, remember Madonna's original recordings?

Having had the pleasure of touring with many bigger bands, I say that tuning down a half step is more common then not when playing live. And yes, it does make the sound heavier, and actually gives it a little more color.

If you rehearse the songs de-tuned then it should never be a problem. But that's just my personal opinion...:smug:
 
#97
Let's see I've gigged tuned down a minor second, or tuned down a major second. This with 5 and 6 string basses, that have also been down to F#0 or instead of a low B, an E as my low string. I've even gigged once the standard set list but TUNED IN FIFTHS. Oh, and I have Hipshots on my basses to drop the lowest string another step when I want.

I guess I'd say do what you need to do, but don't let it become a crutch. If there are keyboards around it's time to speak grownup note names for sure. You learn a lot of this stuff if you play woodwinds or brass in various transposing keys.

As for MOST successful bands do this or that: only in some genres is non-standard tuning very much in use. The world continues to revolve around standard tuning or at least being able to name the actual pitch of the notes.​
 
#98
TRichardsbass said:
Different thought pattern, so hope you didn't laugh yourself and get hurt! LOL!

If you play fretless and are used to using "perfect pitch" listening skills then yes, an Eb and an E are clearly going to effect you. However, if everyone is actually tuned down (which of course normally doesn't happen with a piano) then when someone starts the night with an E chord, but the guitar and bass are both down half a step, then the E will sound the same for everyone.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that someone can only sing and play a song EXACTLY as they hear it or it was originally recorded. Especially given that if you listen to vinyl, you are subject to the actual rate of rotation of the turntable, so on my turntable it might be slightly faster (therefore higher) and on yours it might be slightly slower (therefore lower) then the actual E. Digital recording is a little different as you don't experience those issues, but songs today are so played with via the mixing and mastering process that I'm sure there are a lot of things that are actually a step higher on the final mix then on the actual original recording. Hey, remember Madonna's original recordings?

Having had the pleasure of touring with many bigger bands, I say that tuning down a half step is more common then not when playing live. And yes, it does make the sound heavier, and actually gives it a little more color.

If you rehearse the songs de-tuned then it should never be a problem. But that's just my personal opinion...:smug:
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Agreed in all respects. But in my situation it really doesn't work well at all. Saying it just doesn't matter as a blanket statement doesn't really work either. It matters a great deal to, say, horn players what key the chart is actually written in. ;)
 
#100
EagleMoon said:
The question isn't so much whether you detune the bass but whether you play the song in E flat or transpose it to E. Same goes for songs written in E and played live in E flat.
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I play jazz mostly. If the song is written in E flat I play it that way on my strandard-tuned 4-string. I've never had a bandleader in that sort of music arbitrarily tell me it's in E, unlike many other situations I've encountered. ;)

As long as everyone's on the same page, it's all good though.
 

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