Two 2x10 cabs, vertical - one man's awakening.

[KJung]

I agreed completely on the low end response part. But Jimmy never said anything to that effect.

I'm still trying to find ANY generalizations by Jimmy in this thread.





If you don't like Jimmy, that's fine with me. But don't use your dislike to attack him for something he didn't do.

You post continues to make no sense. That would be like saying 'I don't like the sound of 112's' or something.

If you are comfortable lumping a Bergantino HT210 and HT115 stack in with an Eden210XLT/115XLT stack as representing 'the same thing', then I guess generalizing to whatever a '210/115' stack is would make sense.

I'm still confused. What does this have to do with 'liking somebody' or not

 

[JimmyM]

You post makes no sense. Comments about one particular cab (that I do have experience with) are not 'generalizations'

Making global statements based on the diameter of a driver.... well

Who's doing that?

My point is that the situation will vary GREATLY depending on the voicing, tuning and performance of each cab. One 15/210 stack might work wonderfully, and another might sound unbalanced.

And that is completely unpredictable due to phase relationships, and the only way to tell if it'll work is to try it. And every time I have tried it, it has sucked in some way for me. Sometimes a lot of suckage, sometimes just a little, but it has never once worked as well for me as matching cabs and stacking them vertically. So I don't even take the chance. I want to be able to set my gear up and forget it exists so I can concentrate on my playing, except of course when I look at my beautiful Ampegs and see how pretty they are

The point is that the experiences posted by the OP were a bit of a mismatch with his title of 'vertical stacking' (i.e., greatly low end, etc.

The low end boost comes from using two cabs instead of one, just to clarify. Vertical stacking doesn't really affect that...it just affects dispersion and your ability to hear yourself.

If one is talking about an Eden 210XLT x 2 stack sounding better than an Eden 210XLT/115XLT, that is, of course, valid. Generalizing that to all 210/115 stacks, and ESPECIALLY seemingly indicating that difference in low end response is due to 'vertically stacking' seemed to warrant a comment.

Well the science behind vertical stacking is valid and proven, though I'll admit that increase in low end is not due to stacking but adding drivers. Of course, when we play bass, we are creating a sound, and if you like the sound you're creating by not doing things by the book, it's all good. For example, when I plug into my SVT 810 or my Portaflex rigs, dispersion issues go completely out the window for me. I'm not a huge treble fan to begin with, and I've yet to be disappointed in my tone in the house on those rare times I've used those rigs without PA.

But learning is never a bad thing, and I am MUCH happier knowing the what fers and the how's comes of audio than I was before. Before I learned them, I was helpless to fix issues with room vs. tone I might have been having. Nowadays, I can fix pretty much any issue I'm having. Arguing against learning proven audio science is just dopey on so many levels. I always hear people say, "If it sounds good, it IS good," as a way to dismiss learning this stuff. Well what if it doesn't sound good? What do you do then?

 

[KJung]

The low end boost comes from using two cabs instead of one, just to clarify. Vertical stacking doesn't really affect that...it just affects dispersion and your ability to hear yourself.

Well the science behind vertical stacking is valid and proven, though I'll admit that increase in low end is not due to stacking but adding drivers.

This was my main point. What he heard was most likely replacing a very midrangy 115 with a deeper voiced 210.

He was comparing two cabs to two cabs, so no additional coupling, etc.

And again, vertical stacking increases UPPER MIDRANGE dispersion, and only below the tweeter crossover level. This can range from having a modest impact on stage to a zero impact, depending on where your tweeter is crossed over, and how much of that 1-2K or so tone you have in your sound (in my experience)

 

[walterw]

What he heard was most likely replacing a very midrangy 115 with a deeper voiced 210.

i think the point is not so much about the EQ of each cab but the phase behavior, especially in the low end.

ported cabs have a lot going on, with the phase of the port's output often being somewhat different than the phase of the speaker itself. mixing cab types mean mixing port and vent types, too, with unpredictable (except predictably less than stellar) results.

the difference is not so much between a berg 15/2x10 stack and an eden one, but between that berg stack and a berg double 2x10 stack or 2x15 stack. (which i would love to get a hold of!)

And again, vertical stacking increases UPPER MIDRANGE dispersion, and only below the tweeter crossover level. This can range from having a modest impact on stage to a zero impact, depending on where your tweeter is crossed over, and how much of that 1-2K or so tone you have in your sound (in my experience)

i wonder how much of the advantage here is not so much dispersion but just getting that top cab up to ear-level?

as for

 

[KJung]

ii wonder how much of the advantage here is not so much dispersion but just getting that top cab up to ear-level?

While the impact of vertical stacking is real, IME, it is relatively minor with bass guitar.

+1, based on my experience of years of playing with a combination of 210's in various configurations, the main impact that gives players a 'wow' is getting that 10 next to their ear. Nothing wrong with that, although there is a danger of fooling yourself that all those mids are actually getting to the audience, which tends to absorb higher frequencies at a greater level than lower frequencies.

 

[JimmyM]

Well the level of impact is in the ear of the beholder, and that modest impact you feel could mean everything to someone else.

 

[KJung]

Well the level of impact is in the ear of the beholder, and that modest impact you feel could mean everything to someone else.

+1 If you have a very bright tone, with lots going on up above 700-800hz or so but below the tweeter... or no tweeter (that kind of 'metal grind' sort of tone) it can be quite noticable to the sides of the stage up close. For many, it will be trivial. +1

It is often presented on this site as a lifechanging thing for everyone. This couldn't be farther from the truth IMO and IME.

And also, +1 that some prefer a driver right at their ear, while others don't. Agreed!

 

[wcriley]

You post continues to make no sense.

You might be correct, sir. Maybe I need to make myself clear.

To recap:
You wrote

impossible to 'generalize' (as JimmyM does) about 'the sound or performance of a 210/115 rig.

which I took to be a snide way of expressing your dislike for the man.

I asked how your generalizations (based on your experience) were any more valid than Jimmy's (based on his personal experience).

You replied with

The point is that the experiences posted by the OP were a bit of a mismatch with his title of 'vertical stacking' (i.e., greatly low end, etc.

I agreed with that statement and pointed out that it had nothing to do with anything Jimmy had written. I also quoted Jimmy to show that he hadn't made any generalizations.

You next replied with some stuff about liking the sound of 112s and comparing different Eden cabs...which may have been on topic for the general discussion, but had absolutely nothing to do with anything I had written.

/discussion

 

[KJung]

You might be correct, sir. Maybe I need to make myself clear.

To recap:
You wrote which I took to be a snide way of expressing your dislike for the man.

I asked how your generalizations (based on your experience) were any more valid than Jimmy's (based on his personal experience).

You replied with

I agreed with that statement and pointed out that it had nothing to do with anything Jimmy had written. I also quoted Jimmy to show that he hadn't made any generalizations.

You next replied with some stuff about liking the sound of 112s and comparing different Eden cabs...which may have been on topic for the general discussion, but had absolutely nothing to do with anything I had written.

/discussion

Let me try it one more time..... talking about 'how 210/115 stacks sound' is a generalization, just like talking about '112' cabs or whatever. There are different brands, different voicings across the thousands of possible 210/115 combination, and HUGE variances in performance across the VERY general category of '210/115 stacks'.

It would be like saying 'I don't like 15's' or 'I don't like 210 cabs'. It is, well, a generalization that is usually based on only having heard a few of the possibilities and then 'generalizing' to the entire population.

Generalizing doesn't make a person a bad person.

If someone says 'I don't like a fEarful', or I don't like a Berg AE410, that is a lot different than saying 'I don't like 15 loaded cabs, or I don't like 410's.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

And again, vertical stacking increases UPPER MIDRANGE dispersion

Having drivers vertical rather than side by side doubles the dispersion angle throughout their bandwidth, not just in the upper midrange. The difference is most noticeable in the upper midrange as that's where side by side drivers are both beaming and comb-filtering.
Another advantage to vertical drivers is that it halves the vertical dispersion. That puts more dBs into the audience, where you want them, and less into the ceiling and floor, where you don't.

 

[KJung]

Having drivers vertical rather than side by side doubles the dispersion angle throughout their bandwidth, not just in the upper midrange. The difference is most noticeable in the upper midrange as that's where side by side drivers are both beaming and comb-filtering.
Another advantage to vertical drivers is that it halves the vertical dispersion. That puts more dBs into the audience, where you want them, and less into the ceiling and floor, where you don't.

+1 It was the 'noticeable' that I was commenting on with bass guitar backline.

 

[ErnieD]

If I stack my two GB neo 212's vertically, how in the world am I going to get my racked gbe 1200, compressor, p0wer conditoner and tuner way up there? better start practicing my clean and jerk and wearing a kidney belt!!

Small step ladder? I have pushed, hefted my Carvin B1500, in a shallow 4 spc Gator rack, onto my two GB Neox 212T's stacked vertically, tho that was more like 35 or so pounds. Now I just "place" my Neopak above the 2x212T's if I use that stack.

More easily now I just place my little F1 on top of my two TC-E RS 210's, also stacked vertically. Still have the B1500 and two 212T's but I won't schlep two of those cabs to a gig til the weather drops below 100 degrees around here. Oh my schweaty balls.

 

[Lazarus.Bird]

My main amp is an SVT which is too wide to stick on top of my 212s. I place it on top of my guitarists 412 and he puts his Marshall head on top of my amp. Been doing this for awhile now and it works just fine.

 

[klyph]

My cabs aren't "matched"- one is 2 10's and the bottom 2 12's, but I would have a similar problem since my head is 45 lbs. Fortunately, the head balances perfectly on the 212 and the lightweight 210 on top of that, head in the middle. I don't know if the six inch space between cabs affects anything or not, but it's a good sounding rig that everyone in the room can hear. I would think that you could do this with a gbe 1200 in a rack and 2 212 Neoxes, maybe I'm wrong. Taping or gluing some carpet underlayment or "gripmat" to the outside of your rack might help if you're afraid of the rig slipping.Go vertical!