UA Arrow - an ecosystem for gearaholics

[seamonkey]

Some of the top UA plugins are made by Brainworx which you can pick up native versions over at Plugin Alliance to try for 2 weeks on a regular PC. Just to hear them.

If you find you like them, and want to offload your PC then you could get a UA.
There's actually several FOH systems that use PCs as effect processors. Waves has a line of them. You'd have to use Waves plugins if you want to use their hardware, just like you'd need to use UA to use their ported plugins. IMHO - Regular PC CPU power seems to be high enough these days that it'd be rare for a regular home studio to need offloading of plugins.

IMHO - YMMV

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Some of the top UA plugins are made by Brainworx which you can pick up native versions over at Plugin Alliance to try for 2 weeks on a regular PC. Just to hear them.

If you find you like them, and want to offload your PC then you could get a UA.
There's actually several FOH systems that use PCs as effect processors. Waves has a line of them. You'd have to use Waves plugins if you want to use their hardware, just like you'd need to use UA to use their ported plugins. IMHO - Regular PC CPU power seems to be high enough these days that it'd be rare for a regular home studio to need offloading of plugins.

IMHO - YMMV

And if you're patient, you can get deep discounts on Brainworx plugins at plugin-alliance.com. Last month almost all were on sale for 1/3 the cost of the UA branded versions.

 

[cavemanbass]

And if you're patient, you can get deep discounts on Brainworx plugins at plugin-alliance.com. Last month almost all were on sale for 1/3 the cost of the UA branded versions.

good to know! So they are identical in sound and features, also with the look of the original hardware, but they run on Windows only? Is latency similar to having the UA hardware if you don’t load up too many plugs at once?

 

[Frank Tuesday]

good to know! So they are identical in sound and features, also with the look of the original hardware, but they run on Windows only? Is latency similar to having the UA hardware if you don’t load up too many plugs at once?

If you speak German, this is an interesting video. If you don't speak german, the basic principle is that the guy did a null test on UA vs. Brainworx. Duplicate audio track, UA on one, BW on the other with the poliarity inverted and otherwise identical parameters. When you play them both, you get total silence, which means the plugins are giving the exact same result.


Latency could be a little worse (depending on how many CPU heavy VSTs your running) because you don't have a second, dedicated VST processor (UA Hardare). But the only time latency matters is if you're live monitoring VSTs on an input. Latency doesn't matter at all when tracking without plugins or mixdown. And if latency is a problem, you can always freeze/render track so you're not running active VSTs on every channel. Latency is one of those things that is an easy marketing point, but 95% of the time is completely irrelevant.

 

[seamonkey]

but they run on Windows only?

PA supports Mac also.

this is an interesting video

That's a great video! Great find!

Latency is one of those things that is an easy marketing point, but 95% of the time is completely irrelevant.

+1

 

[cavemanbass]

If you speak German, this is an interesting video. If you don't speak german, the basic principle is that the guy did a null test on UA vs. Brainworx. Duplicate audio track, UA on one, BW on the other with the poliarity inverted and otherwise identical parameters. When you play them both, you get total silence, which means the plugins are giving the exact same result.


Latency could be a little worse (depending on how many CPU heavy VSTs your running) because you don't have a second, dedicated VST processor (UA Hardare). But the only time latency matters is if you're live monitoring VSTs on an input. Latency doesn't matter at all when tracking without plugins or mixdown. And if latency is a problem, you can always freeze/render track so you're not running active VSTs on every channel. Latency is one of those things that is an easy marketing point, but 95% of the time is completely irrelevant.

Latency is definitely relevant to me, I’m playing my bass through Arrow and monitoring in real time with all sorts of tasty processors that I never expected to be able to get my hands on. Arrow has pretty much replaced my pedal board.
I’m in the midst of a conversation with UA support regarding their published latency numbers v what I see in my DAW. I will report as I learn more.
Also realizing that latency reported by my DAW is not necessarily what I’m hearing live; UA’s claim that direct monitoring results in just 1.1msec at 96k might very well be true. I definitely don’t notice any latency even with all the plug in slots active.
Jamkazam is another story, but even there the network latency is a much bigger factor than the interface most of the time.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Latency is definitely relevant to me, I’m playing my bass through Arrow and monitoring in real time with all sorts of tasty processors that I never expected to be able to get my hands on.

Which, as I said, is the only time latency matters. I almost never use input VST (except a tuner) because I'd rather make those decisions in the mix, so I can focus entirely on my performance while tracking. But use the workflow that works for you. There's no one right way.

 

[selowitch]

I HAVE

Jamkazam is another story, but even there the network latency is a much bigger factor than the interface most of the time.

I got an e-mail from JamKazam recently saying they were working to improve the latency within JK. If they can pull it off, that would be great!

 

[seamonkey]

Which, as I said, is the only time latency matters. I almost never use input VST (except a tuner) because I'd rather make those decisions in the mix, so I can focus entirely on my performance while tracking. But use the workflow that works for you. There's no one right way.

That's actually a workflow that UA recommends
Invalid Link Removed
"Minimizing or Avoiding Latency in the DAW: Don't Load UAD-2 Plug-ins in the DAW Until Mixing"

 

[seamonkey]

I HAVE
I got an e-mail from JamKazam recently saying they were working to improve the latency within JK. If they can pull it off, that would be great!

If you're all in the same city you might get some low latency with a service like Jamulus, and one of the band members running a private Jamulus server. Seems like everybody is running some kind of server these days many for gaming.

 

[cavemanbass]

That's actually a workflow that UA recommends
Invalid Link Removed
"Minimizing or Avoiding Latency in the DAW: Don't Load UAD-2 Plug-ins in the DAW Until Mixing"

this is something different - they are talking about running plugins in your DAW v running them on the DSP in their interface.

I have to say UA support was quite good. Took several days to get a tech working on my ticket, but once he started working it he responded to my follow ups within a few hours. And did a bunch of research into both Jamkazam and also my DAW, Studio One. Sent me links to three different videos (one for JK, and two for S1).
In case anyone is interested:
Best services for online music jam (2020) | AudioGeek11

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Apparently there are settings within S1 for low latency monitoring within the DAW. Studio One isn't really a problem since I can monitor directly off the interface so I will try the suggestion more out of curiosity. It also means that JK could potentially make big improvements in their app; current focus for JK developers is on internet latency which is definitely the right priority.

 

[seamonkey]

this is something different - they are talking about running plugins in your DAW v running them on the DSP in their interface.

Sure, but the Arrow DSP can only do so much. AFAIK it's a CPU core, or so I've heard.

 

[DirkP]

I have the impression that latency is far overrated. I coudn't care less and never had a look at the latency, when buying an interface. It only matters for direct monitoring purposes if you want to listen to plugins live without noticeable latency and don't use a system like UA, where the inbuild hardware processors calculate the effects.
I use only hardware compressors and eq and preamps, so it matters to me exactly zero. I would add other effects than the before mentioned after recording, so again, latency doesn't matter at all.

 

[DirtDog]

If you're all in the same city you might get some low latency with a service like Jamulus, and one of the band members running a private Jamulus server. Seems like everybody is running some kind of server these days many for gaming.

my bandmates and I spent the better part of a month building and refining a local Jamulus server. Sometimes we’d get decent results but the first time drums and bass played together....unusable. It was the network latency that killed us, even though we were hardwired (no wifi) and have fast connections. I guess 30km distance from each other was enough to mess it up.

Too bad as we actually had a cool system set up where my bass signal was routed to my amp in the jam room and my vox to the PA. I had a custom mix fed back to me remotely. Sound quality was great. Latency was not. Even after tweaking every Jamulus parameter to reduce latency, we were still getting between 60 and 80ms return trip latency. Enough to screw up bass and drums.

 

[seamonkey]

Even after tweaking every Jamulus parameter

That is too bad. There are some internet providers that sell how fast they are with a download/upload app - but this is only to their own hub, and it's only a bulk data transfer, not small interactive packets. In many areas they are a monopoly and the only choice for households. There's just no competition to make them do better.

 

[SteveFromBerlin]

I am thinking of getting an Arrow or a Twin with two processors. Question for owners of the former. Does it have enough power to play 1 bass sim, 1 eq and 1 comp? Could you record a clean signal as well as the amp channel (two tracks) at once? Thanks for your help! I guess the Twin would be a safer bet, but I really like the stylish Arrow (and also it's, of course).

 

[cavemanbass]

my bandmates and I spent the better part of a month building and refining a local Jamulus server. Sometimes we’d get decent results but the first time drums and bass played together....unusable. It was the network latency that killed us, even though we were hardwired (no wifi) and have fast connections. I guess 30km distance from each other was enough to mess it up.

Too bad as we actually had a cool system set up where my bass signal was routed to my amp in the jam room and my vox to the PA. I had a custom mix fed back to me remotely. Sound quality was great. Latency was not. Even after tweaking every Jamulus parameter to reduce latency, we were still getting between 60 and 80ms return trip latency. Enough to screw up bass and drums.

That’s a bummer indeed. Without question network latency is the big issue. My friend with DSL connection, 15 miles away, 70-80ms. Other friend with fiber (sonic / att) is under 7msec when connected to another user on the same network. I have gigabit over copper (Comcast) and getting around 12msec.
Good internet + low latency interface total latency could be under 10msec (on Jamkazam) But even 20ms is quite tolerable. My biggest problem is trying to get my bandmates to try it out!

 

[cavemanbass]

I am thinking of getting an Arrow or a Twin with two processors. Question for owners of the former. Does it have enough power to play 1 bass sim, 1 eq and 1 comp? Could you record a clean signal as well as the amp channel (two tracks) at once? Thanks for your help! I guess the Twin would be a safer bet, but I really like the stylish Arrow (and also it's, of course).

It’s hard to say for sure, I kinda remember seeing a chart of DSP usage on UA website so you might do a search.
The bundled plugs seem to be very efficient; I have UA 610 - 1176 - 2 SPL processors - Pultec EQ on one channel for bass, and UA 610 - LA2A - plate reverb (not bundled) on the other channel for vocal in one setup. Pretty close to max DSP at that point.
There is an SVT included with Arrow but I didn’t care for the sound. The Ampeg collection looks interesting as it has a B15, not sure how much DSP it consumes though. I think UA is more about studio processors than amps.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

There is an SVT included with Arrow but I didn’t care for the sound. The Ampeg collection looks interesting as it has a B15, not sure how much DSP it consumes though. I think UA is more about studio processors than amps.

I think the B15 sounds great. I have the Brainworx branded one. I tried the SVT and don't care for it as much.

 

[SteveFromBerlin]

It’s hard to say for sure, I kinda remember seeing a chart of DSP usage on UA website so you might do a search.
The bundled plugs seem to be very efficient; I have UA 610 - 1176 - 2 SPL processors - Pultec EQ on one channel for bass, and UA 610 - LA2A - plate reverb (not bundled) on the other channel for vocal in one setup. Pretty close to max DSP at that point.
There is an SVT included with Arrow but I didn’t care for the sound. The Ampeg collection looks interesting as it has a B15, not sure how much DSP it consumes though. I think UA is more about studio processors than amps.

This would be the chart: Invalid Link Removed

Amps seem to draw a lot more than EQs. But the system itself uses some percentage as well. That sounds like a great signal chain you got there.

It's funny how everybody in real life loves an SVT but doesn't care for the one of UA. Is it because it's a simple free version and there are knobs missing?