UA Arrow - an ecosystem for gearaholics

[willsellout]

One thing I wonder about with the ecosystems like UA that rely on all the plugins—and this may not be the case at all—but since they are chunks of software made by different manufacturers, all trying to play nice together, I’m guessing they must each need regular updating, patching? And does that cause annoying or interruptions to the workflow?

So for example, when you go back to a mix from a year ago, might it throw a bunch of errors saying you need to update this and that plugin first?

Or does all this happen seamlessly?

The UA Plug-ins are not made by a bunch of other manufacturers. They are made by UA, which is why they have their own ecosystem. They are updated pretty regularly. You get an email when something is ready for an update or if there’s a new free plugin in your account. UA is pretty slick and their stuff works pretty darn well. There aren’t too many problems with them. The only issues I’ve run into is with UA and pro tools because pro tools is terrible but generally UA is pretty good at getting patches in place when things go wonky.

 

[willsellout]

I also wonder, does a person pay for a plugin once, and own it “forever”? When it gets updated, are the updates free? Or does one have to keep paying, in some way or other, to continue to own the plugin? Multiplied by many plugins, that could get expensive, if thats the case.

Once you buy the plugin, it’s in your UA account forever. Updates are free. But UA plug-ins are some of the most expensive on the market so I would expect nothing less.

 

[cavemanbass]

The mods felt the need to move this to recording gear forum. My interest in this device is in all the processing that's available - from the perspective of a pedal junkie who used to love rack gear and now has discovered a whole new world of plug ins. So I feel like this belongs in effects forum which is where I spend most of my time. Helix has a USB out that you can use to interface with a computer, does that mean Helix thread should be in the recording forum?

 

[DirtDog]

Once you buy the plugin, it’s in your UA account forever. Updates are free. But UA plug-ins are some of the most expensive on the market so I would expect nothing less.

Do you know if that's the same thing for the older Apollo stuff?

 

[Max Bogosity]

One thing I wonder about with the ecosystems like UA that rely on all the plugins—and this may not be the case at all—but since they are chunks of software made by different manufacturers, all trying to play nice together, I’m guessing they must each need regular updating, patching? And does that cause annoying or interruptions to the workflow?

So for example, when you go back to a mix from a year ago, might it throw a bunch of errors saying you need to update this and that plugin first?

Or does all this happen seamlessly?

It’s not just the plugins. I have an M-Audio MIDI to USB interface which is just a doorstop now because they stopped updating the drivers ten years ago and it just flat doesn’t work with newer operating systems. That’s bad enough with a $50 unit, but it would be really painful with something that cost $500 plus plugins. If I were going to invest in something like that it would only be on a dedicated standalone PC that never, ever, gets updated.

 

[ThinCrappyTone]

The UA Plug-ins are not made by a bunch of other manufacturers. They are made by UA, which is why they have their own ecosystem. They are updated pretty regularly. You get an email when something is ready for an update or if there’s a new free plugin in your account. UA is pretty slick and their stuff works pretty darn well. There aren’t too many problems with them. The only issues I’ve run into is with UA and pro tools because pro tools is terrible but generally UA is pretty good at getting patches in place when things go wonky.

Cool, thank you for the info. I go through plugin/update/software/patch/manufacturer-incompatibility-hell in another creative discipline, so this was a big concern for me when I decided on an interface.

The fact that they keep all the plugins in-house is a great idea. Probably critical to their success.

 

[NKBassman]

I have a slightly older UA Apollo Twin, and I agree the plugins that UA offer are outstanding. My only suggestion would be to wait for the one you want to go on sale before you buy it. They have sales pretty frequently, so it's just a matter of time and patience to save upwards of 50-60% in some cases .

 

[DirtDog]

It’s not just the plugins. I have an M-Audio MIDI to USB interface which is just a doorstop now because they stopped updating the drivers ten years ago and it just flat doesn’t work with newer operating systems. That’s bad enough with a $50 unit, but it would be really painful with something that cost $500 plus plugins. If I were going to invest in something like that it would only be on a dedicated standalone PC that never, ever, gets updated.

I'm going through this with my iMac. I've topped out at High Sierra - USB 2.0, FW400 and Thunderbolt 2 connections. Knock on wood, but this has been a remarkably reliable solution for me all these years, but now that the world has moved past these outmoded protocols, I'm in the dust when it comes to the higher end new stuff.

I *could* get the Arrow and run it with my new MBP but I don't use the MBP for my everyday recording stuff, just mobile recording.

Decisions, decisions. I should have just bought an Apollo unit when I was shopping last year. Now they seem to be getting' rare.

I *really* shouldn't have gotten rid of my MOTU 828 mkIII. That was a nice piece of kit.

 

[MDBass]

That is your buffer size; what sample rate are you using? Latency reported in your DAW or in Jamkazam?

48, latency reported in the DAW.

 

[MDBass]

One thing I wonder about with the ecosystems like UA that rely on all the plugins—and this may not be the case at all—but since they are chunks of software made by different manufacturers, all trying to play nice together, I’m guessing they must each need regular updating, patching? And does that cause annoying or interruptions to the workflow?

So for example, when you go back to a mix from a year ago, might it throw a bunch of errors saying you need to update this and that plugin first?

Or does all this happen seamlessly?

They aren’t made by different manufacturers: the software is all made by UA.

The only time you ever need to update the system is when they release a new plug-in they you want access to.

 

[MDBass]

Good question, maybe some of the longer term users have insight into this?

See above.

 

[MDBass]

I also wonder, does a person pay for a plugin once, and own it “forever”? When it gets updated, are the updates free? Or does one have to keep paying, in some way or other, to continue to own the plugin? Multiplied by many plugins, that could get expensive, if thats the case.

Just like any other plug-in, once you own it it’s yours forever.

 

[MDBass]

5.4 at 64 is pretty hefty, some USB devices perform better.

my Thunderbolt (ver 1) Clarett has 3.6ms RTT on 128 samples. 96/24.

Both the console software and your DAW have delay compensation: the real world difference between 5.4ms and 3.6ms is non-existent.

 

[MDBass]

Once you buy the plugin, it’s in your UA account forever. Updates are free. But UA plug-ins are some of the most expensive on the market so I would expect nothing less.

This is the only real knock against UA: their plugins are pretty absurdly overpriced.

They were essentially peerless in terms of quality when they first came out, but other manufacturers have definitely caught up since then.

You won’t hear the difference between an 1176 from Waves and the UA 1176 in a mix regardless, but the Unison system itself is still unique and quite exceptional.

TLDR: UA interfaces are great, but never pay retail for their plug-ins.

 

[Aloe]

Both the console software and your DAW have delay compensation: the real world difference between 5.4ms and 3.6ms is non-existent.

and between 5.4 and 2.4 (if both set to 64 samples) as well?

our singer actually notices latency after 4ms to be uncomfortable, so some see a real-world difference even between 3.6 and 5.4ms. yeah, I remember the times when everything sub 8ms was considered good and I'm glad those times are gone and we have better hardware now.

I'm not saying latency under 4ms is a must, but 5.4ms at 64 samples? come on, it's the latency of a Scarlett, not of a powerful expensive Thunderbolt interface. I know that UAD interfaces are not the fastest, but how the heck they managed to make an expensive TB device with latency of a USB 2.0 cheap interface?

 

[cavemanbass]

Both the console software and your DAW have delay compensation: the real world difference between 5.4ms and 3.6ms is non-existent.

the only time I worry about latency is real-time online playing (ie Jamkazam). But even then, network latency tends to be a much bigger factor then the interface.

 

[MDBass]

and between 5.4 and 2.4 (if both set to 64 samples) as well?

our singer actually notices latency after 4ms to be uncomfortable, so some see a real-world difference even between 3.6 and 5.4ms. yeah, I remember the times when everything sub 8ms was considered good and I'm glad those times are gone and we have better hardware now.

I'm not saying latency under 4ms is a must, but 5.4ms at 64 samples? come on, it's the latency of a Scarlett, not of a powerful expensive Thunderbolt interface. I know that UAD interfaces are not the fastest, but how the heck they managed to make an expensive TB device with latency of a USB 2.0 cheap interface?

Scarlett doesn’t have built in latency compensation.

What I’m saying is in a real world recording situation, a singer recording through a Unison UA preamp and compressor will feel as though they’re singing through the hardware units.

 

[cavemanbass]

and between 5.4 and 2.4 (if both set to 64 samples) as well?

our singer actually notices latency after 4ms to be uncomfortable, so some see a real-world difference even between 3.6 and 5.4ms. yeah, I remember the times when everything sub 8ms was considered good and I'm glad those times are gone and we have better hardware now.

I'm not saying latency under 4ms is a must, but 5.4ms at 64 samples? come on, it's the latency of a Scarlett, not of a powerful expensive Thunderbolt interface. I know that UAD interfaces are not the fastest, but how the heck they managed to make an expensive TB device with latency of a USB 2.0 cheap interface?

If someone is keyed in to latency to the point where they find that 4ms is uncomfortable, they would need to arrange amps, monitors, and drums to perfectly suit them and to the detriment of other band members. 4ms is equal to sound traveling 4 feet; moving from one side of the stage to another would likely be intolerable with such sensitivity. Our ears and brains compensate for a lot just to keep us from going insane.

Regarding latency of UA interfaces - and btw I've confirmed that my friend's Apollo has same latency as my Arrow - I have a similar question, although surely a big part of the answer is that they are doing a heck of a lot more then a typical interface. Nonetheless, UA marketing copy makes claims about sub-ms DA / AD conversion, and less than 2ms for the DSP process regardless of the number of plugs that are active. So where does the other latency come from?

 

[Aloe]

4ms is equal to sound traveling 4 feet; moving from one side of the stage to another would likely be intolerable with such sensitivity. Our ears and brains compensate for a lot just to keep us from going insane.

uhm, live performing and studio work are different use cases.

try taking a mix with drums and bass are grooving in sync and moving bass 'just' 4-5ms later.
will it all sound the same?

in a real world recording situation, a singer recording through a Unison UA preamp and compressor will feel as though they’re singing through the hardware units.

true, but if no plugins are used at recording, a faster interface is faster.
in fact, those low latencies of modern TB interfaces can be very addictive.

 

[MDBass]

uhm, live performing and studio work are different use cases.

try taking a mix with drums and bass are grooving in sync and moving bass 'just' 4-5ms later.
will it all sound the same?



true, but if no plugins are used at recording, a faster interface is faster.
in fact, those low latencies of modern TB interfaces can be very addictive.

The main point of using a UA interface is access to their Unison plugins.

If you aren’t interested in using them, another interface may very well make more sense.

“Some see a real-world difference even between 3.6 and 5.4ms” means you think a sub 2ms difference between interfaces is discernible, and it isn’t unless you’re some kind of savant.