Sure. I'd love to if that's okay with the well-known and respected designer. Thanks!
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Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Although I've been following this thread it seems just a bit ridiculous.
What is the ultimate goal for a DB speaker?
Is it 1) to faithfully reproduce the sound of the DB, or 2) provide a fairly faithful but usable sound on a gig? I opt for door number 2.
Really. There are so many variables in getting a good amplified sound.
What really matters is the final result which is a mix of player, bass, setup, amp, speaker and room. I like the Clarus/Acme B1 combination. It allows ME to get my best sound to date.
Would I achieve sound nirvana with the 'ultimate' pickup, microphone, preamp, amp, speaker cabinet? Maybe. But then again, I think there is value in finding gear that works and offers a good, usable tone on the bandstand and learning to make music with it.
I have the utmost respect for designers who strive to improve the quality in the pursuit of helping players get 'that sound in their heads' to come out of their speaker. You guys are the Rick Jones and Andy Lewis of our day. Don't misunderstand. I'm just saying that buying the 'ultimate' whatever won't automatically give us the best sound on the bandstand.
That sound begins with us.
What is the ultimate goal for a DB speaker?
Is it 1) to faithfully reproduce the sound of the DB, or 2) provide a fairly faithful but usable sound on a gig? I opt for door number 2.
Really. There are so many variables in getting a good amplified sound.
What really matters is the final result which is a mix of player, bass, setup, amp, speaker and room. I like the Clarus/Acme B1 combination. It allows ME to get my best sound to date.
Would I achieve sound nirvana with the 'ultimate' pickup, microphone, preamp, amp, speaker cabinet? Maybe. But then again, I think there is value in finding gear that works and offers a good, usable tone on the bandstand and learning to make music with it.
I have the utmost respect for designers who strive to improve the quality in the pursuit of helping players get 'that sound in their heads' to come out of their speaker. You guys are the Rick Jones and Andy Lewis of our day. Don't misunderstand. I'm just saying that buying the 'ultimate' whatever won't automatically give us the best sound on the bandstand.
That sound begins with us.
I don't disagree at all. When I am playing in my studio (my bass, my hands, my strings, NO AMP) and standing in the best spot in the room I hear exactly what I want to hear and I find that very pleasant.
My 'ultimate rig' will be the one that gives me that same experience on stage (with hopefully enough lattitude to adjust for different rooms, crowd size (relative humidity) whatever).
There may or may not be any difference, other than a semantic one, between 'ultimate' and 'best sound to date'. It sounds like you are close enought to your own sound nirvana that you have no desire to look further. Congratulations. Seriously.
I feel like I can see Nirvana from where I am but I'm not quite there yet. The final piece of the puzzle will hopefully give me my studio sound (or, as I said, a good recording studio sound) on the bandstand.
I completely agree with this in every respect. For years I carted around a very unweildy rig and mixed mic and pickups into a pole mounted speaker. It sounded really good, and I'm glad I did it. But at some point, I realized that all of the futzing was distracting me from making music. I'm currently very happy to carry in a combo amp that I like a lot, my bass, and a cable, and get a sound that - while I like it a lot - isn't what my bass sounds like in the studio but is plenty good enough for the bandstand. It enables me to focus on making music with the other people on the stage rather than tweaking gear. I think I'm a better musician for it.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I may have come off a bit strong. It's a great time to be a bassist. We have an amazing amount of choices in strings, pickups, mics, etc that guys playing 50 years ago couldn't dream of. How did those players ever do it? They couldn't rely on amplification so they got the biggest tone they could without it. That's a valuable thing to learn to do.
As bassists, we are paid to be the foundation. We play quarter notes, roots, outline the harmony and strive to make it feel good. My ideal sound is one with a strong fundamental and punch. A friend calls it THE CORE. Give me that and enough clarity to cut through and I'm happy. After experimenting with mics and other things in pursuit of 'my bass, but louder' I settled on using a pickup and a deep, dark amp because I think it helps me do the job I'm paid to do. That's my thing and I know plenty of players who go in another direction.
I've seen and heard plenty of players using mics and whatever trying for the true sound of their bass as it was on the CD they were selling at the gig. Sometimes it works and often it doesn't.
I recently attended a gig by a fantastic bassist with the initials RR. 200 year old bass, mic only and the sound was a woolly mess. His sound on the CD could almost have been direct from the pickup; immediate and clear, lacking warmth. If we think we are getting the best sound by using the best gear, or the IDEAL gear, we may be missing it.
That is all.
As bassists, we are paid to be the foundation. We play quarter notes, roots, outline the harmony and strive to make it feel good. My ideal sound is one with a strong fundamental and punch. A friend calls it THE CORE. Give me that and enough clarity to cut through and I'm happy. After experimenting with mics and other things in pursuit of 'my bass, but louder' I settled on using a pickup and a deep, dark amp because I think it helps me do the job I'm paid to do. That's my thing and I know plenty of players who go in another direction.
I've seen and heard plenty of players using mics and whatever trying for the true sound of their bass as it was on the CD they were selling at the gig. Sometimes it works and often it doesn't.
I recently attended a gig by a fantastic bassist with the initials RR. 200 year old bass, mic only and the sound was a woolly mess. His sound on the CD could almost have been direct from the pickup; immediate and clear, lacking warmth. If we think we are getting the best sound by using the best gear, or the IDEAL gear, we may be missing it.
That is all.
I just played a Dixie quintet gig
. My ply bass, lifeline, GB Contour amp . It sounded great, like a nice dark acoustic sounding foundation. Got compliments from the band (I was subbing).
Many of my gigs are quiet duo affairs where I can get a very natural acoustic sound using a mic and very little amplification. I don't believe in 'futzing with gear any more than Chris does. I just haven't found that one size fits all and sometimes choose different gear for different gigs. Sounds like RR chose the wrong gear for both gigs. Using the pickup for the concert and the microphone for the recording would have made Both sound better.
. My ply bass, lifeline, GB Contour amp . It sounded great, like a nice dark acoustic sounding foundation. Got compliments from the band (I was subbing).
Many of my gigs are quiet duo affairs where I can get a very natural acoustic sound using a mic and very little amplification. I don't believe in 'futzing with gear any more than Chris does. I just haven't found that one size fits all and sometimes choose different gear for different gigs. Sounds like RR chose the wrong gear for both gigs. Using the pickup for the concert and the microphone for the recording would have made Both sound better.
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The "my bass only louder" is a fool's errand. If you could magically get your bass to sound exactly like it does, but louder---it would likely sound like crap.
My goal is to get the proper function of my bass but louder. The important thing is the ENVELOPE. How the notes start and stop. If you're playing acoustically with say--a nylon string guitarist in a duo---you'll likely get the perfect envelope. So first--I hone in on that function. With the optimum right hand stroke---there is a perfect note beginning. The "thump" is critical. Not hearing your rhythmic attack and pitch through the mids---hearing those critical parts of the note beginning like you would hear in that duo---and hearing and FEELING it with the optimum right hand attack. The second and almost most important element of the envelope is the stopping of the notes. Most bass gear can do ok with the note start---but the stop---nope. That's why your right hand hurts at the end of a gig. You know you're loud enough but you can't seem to drive the band in the way you could drive the above mentioned duo. When the notes don't stop correctly---they bleed into the next note. So you have to play harder to get above the tail end of the previous note. Funny thing is that the old trusty Polytones did this pretty well. Albeit very lo-fi. But you could hear it thumpin'. But you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Polytone doesn't sound ANYTHING like your bass---but it does function pretty well. If you're banging out quarter notes to Cherokee---it'll certainly get the job done.
I get a bit annoyed with DB players that are proud of the fact that "they don't need no stinkin' quality gear! It's all in the hands!" Being obsessed with gear is a drag. I get lots of guys that obsess over their sound in their living room. Never really learned their axe, but are experts at sound!
Now we get to the point of finding gear that functions well but can provide the harmonic richness that inspires us to play better. It's there. It is a daunting pursuit, but to me it's worth it. I heard a bassist lately who was proud of the fact that "any amp will do" because he had gut strings an inch off the board and was musical enough and powerful enough that his superior musicianship would come through regardless of which amp or pickup. Not like us suckers that work on getting a great amplified sound. He was playing an Underwood through a well respected DB combo amp. Not the amp's fault but it sounded like doo-doo. Thin, twangy and vulgar. But his gargantuan ego should be enough to prove his prowess!
Then there's what I call the "bebop Nazis". Got to have strings an inch off the board---and you MUST have an Electro Voice RE20 right on the f hole. A sound that would make any sousaphone player proud. Until the drummer switches from brushes to sticks and the bass is one single constant note.
Maybe it's just me, but I play better and enjoy playing more when I can get the bass to function at its highest level and get a sound that may not be "my bass but louder". I'm shooting for "my bass but better".
My goal is to get the proper function of my bass but louder. The important thing is the ENVELOPE. How the notes start and stop. If you're playing acoustically with say--a nylon string guitarist in a duo---you'll likely get the perfect envelope. So first--I hone in on that function. With the optimum right hand stroke---there is a perfect note beginning. The "thump" is critical. Not hearing your rhythmic attack and pitch through the mids---hearing those critical parts of the note beginning like you would hear in that duo---and hearing and FEELING it with the optimum right hand attack. The second and almost most important element of the envelope is the stopping of the notes. Most bass gear can do ok with the note start---but the stop---nope. That's why your right hand hurts at the end of a gig. You know you're loud enough but you can't seem to drive the band in the way you could drive the above mentioned duo. When the notes don't stop correctly---they bleed into the next note. So you have to play harder to get above the tail end of the previous note. Funny thing is that the old trusty Polytones did this pretty well. Albeit very lo-fi. But you could hear it thumpin'. But you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Polytone doesn't sound ANYTHING like your bass---but it does function pretty well. If you're banging out quarter notes to Cherokee---it'll certainly get the job done.
I get a bit annoyed with DB players that are proud of the fact that "they don't need no stinkin' quality gear! It's all in the hands!" Being obsessed with gear is a drag. I get lots of guys that obsess over their sound in their living room. Never really learned their axe, but are experts at sound!
Now we get to the point of finding gear that functions well but can provide the harmonic richness that inspires us to play better. It's there. It is a daunting pursuit, but to me it's worth it. I heard a bassist lately who was proud of the fact that "any amp will do" because he had gut strings an inch off the board and was musical enough and powerful enough that his superior musicianship would come through regardless of which amp or pickup. Not like us suckers that work on getting a great amplified sound. He was playing an Underwood through a well respected DB combo amp. Not the amp's fault but it sounded like doo-doo. Thin, twangy and vulgar. But his gargantuan ego should be enough to prove his prowess!
Then there's what I call the "bebop Nazis". Got to have strings an inch off the board---and you MUST have an Electro Voice RE20 right on the f hole. A sound that would make any sousaphone player proud. Until the drummer switches from brushes to sticks and the bass is one single constant note.
Maybe it's just me, but I play better and enjoy playing more when I can get the bass to function at its highest level and get a sound that may not be "my bass but louder". I'm shooting for "my bass but better".
The Re20 is just fine. It's just that you'll see lots of guys with it on the f-hole---the worst place to put it
Flagging this thread to come back and read through - first couple of pages made my head hurt (in a good way).
I have used a VL-208 for a long time and been pretty satisfied as a doubling amp (using an iAMP-500 for EQ changes when switching instruments) but every now and then think I might be served by a different setup (in particular, something with a bit more oomph for electric). A lot to chew on in this thread about cab design - way more than I can comprehend I'm sure.
I wish there was an easy way to test/sample without dropping tons of money just to try things out.
I have used a VL-208 for a long time and been pretty satisfied as a doubling amp (using an iAMP-500 for EQ changes when switching instruments) but every now and then think I might be served by a different setup (in particular, something with a bit more oomph for electric). A lot to chew on in this thread about cab design - way more than I can comprehend I'm sure.
I wish there was an easy way to test/sample without dropping tons of money just to try things out.
Great post, Mike. Thanks. I always enjoy your insight and understanding.
I looked up 'Fools Errand' in my dictionary and was surprised to see my picture there. lol (Don Quixote has always been my role model).
From all reports it seems, Mike, that your efforts have born some amazing fruit. If I understand you correctly, your efforts are directed not at MBOL, but at recreating 'the essence' of what you Hear and Feel If you're playing acoustically with say--a nylon string guitarist in a duo BUT being able to recreate that at significantly higher volumes. To the extent you are (or already have been) successful at that you really qualify as some kind of alchemist -- turning lead into gold. I appreciate and applaude your efforts. (And I'm saving my money - wink wink).
Regarding Greg's question:
On MOST gigs, I agree that Goal #2 is what I'm aiming for. But for me it's not quite that simple. You only mentioned SOUND, Greg. Granted, that's (maybe) all we're conveying to 'the house', but I'm self-centered enough where, to me, the FEEL is every bit as important as the sound.
Since I really never play 'just' acoustially on any of my gigs, I didn't realize to what an extent I was 'playing the amp'. The first gig recently where I tried using just a microphone on my carved bass, it was as if someone had thrown a switch and sent me to another universe (cue Outer Limits sound track). Not only did my bass SOUND like what I enjoy in my home studio, it FELT like it. I know I had a big poop eating grin on my face. I don't understand the science of acoustics but I suspect it had a lot to do with Mikes 'Envelope'. And even though it wasn't a nylon string guitar - it was a grand piano - I felt transported. I may understand the mechanism of addiction better now. Having experienced that once - I want that 'high' again (and again).
This is probably also the reason my bass guitars hang on the wall collecting dust. I appreciate and enjoy great BG playing (for me, think Leland Sklar) but it doesn't move me to play that instrument the way I am moved by DB. The closest I come is with my Breedlove ABG.
So, for me, it's door number one when possible, and door number two the rest of the time. What's the expression: "to have your cake and eat it too.
PS THANK YOU to all who have contributed to this thread. I think it may have been Chris F. who once said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture" or some such thing. Communication is imperfect but it's what we've got and I really appreciate all of you great 'cats' on TB.
Without plugging any brands of gear, I think the above was the riddle I was always looking to solve until I stumbled onto a collection of gear that solved it for me. Once that happened, a little switch in my head went off that said, "it's ain't perfect, but i can work with that", and I haven't had any gear gas for years now. it might not SOUND exactly like "My Bass, Only Louder", but it feels like MY BASS as described above. Once that feeling is there, it's time to quit worrying about gear and just make music.
Yes and it changes for every stage setup, room size, indoor/outdoor. On a big stage I've had soundtechs get it right, and or horribly wrong. You're no longer monitoring your cab but the set of monitors in front of you. Mic the cab and you could get lucky. Di on the big stage with double bass or acoustic are notorious for feedback.
A fools errand maybe but when it's right we play better, when its wrong its a job.
I've never had the pleasure of in ear monitoring....
Anyone?
A fools errand maybe but when it's right we play better, when its wrong its a job.
I've never had the pleasure of in ear monitoring....
Anyone?
I don't really believe the MBOL crowd either. My bass sounds different depending on the day. Most of the time it's pretty good, some other days acoustically I have a hard time hearing it until I play it into a corner and have the sound bounce back at me. The point is that MBOL means you're also amplifying something that can be tempermental and inconsistent.
Thats the nice thing about gear, it can even out the inconsistencies. Its funny as I can't stand the sound of some pickups, esp the FC and yet some people make it sound wonderful (DURRL sounds amazing in his technique videos). I prefer the DPA mainly because it brings out this LaFaro bebop vibe that I can't get with other gear and I'll do whatever I need to so I can get that vibe. It does cut through to me. But I also use it since it seems fairly easy for me to tame. Even if I blend it with another piezo I lose that vibe very quickly. I see it as a combination of mic, strings, bass, and pickup. I think TroyK's approach that is a whole package and not just one thing is important.
Thats the nice thing about gear, it can even out the inconsistencies. Its funny as I can't stand the sound of some pickups, esp the FC and yet some people make it sound wonderful (DURRL sounds amazing in his technique videos). I prefer the DPA mainly because it brings out this LaFaro bebop vibe that I can't get with other gear and I'll do whatever I need to so I can get that vibe. It does cut through to me. But I also use it since it seems fairly easy for me to tame. Even if I blend it with another piezo I lose that vibe very quickly. I see it as a combination of mic, strings, bass, and pickup. I think TroyK's approach that is a whole package and not just one thing is important.
Huy -thanks, but the bass in the videos isn't using a pickup. For the videos, I'm either using an Audio Technica 2022 or an Electro Voice RE20 right in front of the bridge. My amplified sound with the FC/PJB setup can be seen/heard in the "Performance Videos" section of my site. I still like that sound, but it's different to be sure. 
No surprise there then. Well I've always been impressed with your amplified sound in other vids, so the comment still stands. 
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I got the 'envelope' thing mostly right, by changing the setup of my basses and finding strings that get closest to my ideal sound, both acoustically and amplified. EP weichs on one bass and regulars on the Kay give me a strong fundamental with just enough sustain. Brighter strings were tough to control through the amp. A now retired mentor told me about ten years ago, 'if you don't like your amplified sound, change the bass, not the amp'.
Sure, amplification is very important and I'm glad we have people pursuing 'the ultimate'. I just think sometimes we put too much emphasis on the last link in the signal chain.
I'm pretty content with my tools right now.
Sure, amplification is very important and I'm glad we have people pursuing 'the ultimate'. I just think sometimes we put too much emphasis on the last link in the signal chain.
I'm pretty content with my tools right now.
I think it all boils down to: the gear is good once it's no longer a distraction from making music. If you're kvetching about your rig, you're not there yet or you're simply being too critical. 
