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Underpowering Orange terror bass

From Crutchf
In the fourteen years you've been a member here that myth has been debunked at least fifty times. The abnormal high frequency content from clipping might toast a tweeter, never a woofer. Clipping never, ever, ever, EVER creates DC.

I worked for a High End Audio Store [22 years] and dealt with this problem many times. Visited many top quality speaker manufactures where the engineers/designers actually demonstrated the problem described below.

Fom Crutchfield;

Underpowering your subwoofer — Pop and Sizzle
Underpowering a subwoofer isn’t inherently bad for the sub. Not giving it enough power just means that the music will sound weak and lack detail.

The danger is when that power is coming from an amplifier that's being overworked and sending out a clipped signal. The clipped signal tries to make the sub do things it's not designed to do, which leads to it tearing itself apart or overheating and burning out.

First, what’s a clipped signal?
Clipping a signal, or squaring its waveform, occurs when the volume of a source signal exceeds the electronic capability of a circuit. Let's say our amplifier can't play a signal more powerful than what voltage V1 can produce. If we tried to increase the volume at the source, the amplifier wouldn't produce more voltage, it would distort the signal, eventually into the form of a square wave.

h12CBLCHRT-o_subwaves.jpeg

Pop: A clipped signal tries to move the cone too quickly
You will notice that the sides of the clipped signal are vertical. That means that the signal will try to move the sub's cone from all the way forward (point E) to all the way to the rear (F) in zero amount of time, travelling at the speed of infinity. Nothing travels that fast, and the sub either tears itself apart trying, or the flapping cone wobbles just enough to jam the coil in the magnet's voice coil gap, killing the sub.

Sizzle: A clipped signal also tells the voice coil to hold still and heat up
The other parts of a square wave, the top and bottom, are horizontal lines that represent the times the signal is telling the cone to stay all the way forward or all the way back. Current flowing through a stationary coil only heats up the coil, which doesn't even benefit from a cooling breeze due to movement. The coil usually burns through one or more of its windings, or heats up enough to deform its shape so that it jams in the magnet's voice coil gap.

There's another, more complex reason voice coils burn when subjected to over-driven, clipped signals. A square wave carries twice the RMS power of a sine wave of the same amplitude (height). So not only is the signal telling the voice coil to pop into a position and sizzle, it's doing it with almost twice the power of the sub's maximum capacity. Usually, it's the glue holding the coil wire to the former that first melts under all the heat, and the coil crashes in its gap.

Distortion is the sub killer
Low power and low volume will not hurt a sub – but distortion will. A clipped signal is a sub's worst enemy. It isn't loudness that destroys an under-powered sub, it's trying to get bass volume by turning up a distorting signal that does it.

Subs are made to withstand a lot more than their specified RMS ratings, so giving them a little more than their highest RMS rating is safe, as long as it's clean and distortion-free.

How to not blow your subwoofer — match the RMS power ratings
Ignore all "peak" and "maximum" wattage ratings, and use only RMS ratings. They may be harder to find, but RMS ratings are the only power ratings you should use. To safely drive a subwoofer, use an amplifier that can give it no less than 75% and no more than 150% of its highest RMS power rating.
 
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There's another, more complex reason voice coils burn when subjected to over-driven, clipped signals. A square wave carries twice the RMS power of a sine wave of the same amplitude (height). So not only is the signal telling the voice coil to pop into a position and sizzle, it's doing it with almost twice the power of the sub's maximum capacity. Usually, it's the glue holding the coil wire to the former that first melts under all the heat, and the coil crashes in its gap.

Pretty sure the above paragraph is the most relevant.

To my understanding the power handling of voice coils would need to be derated for DC versus what they can handle at AC. But when an amp is clipped, I believe the square shape actually comes from the abundant production of high frequency harmonics rather than DC.


Here's a couple of threads you might enjoy.

Distorted sound
Distorted sound
 
I ran some recorded music for a little show on Friday using my 1W Blackstar guitar amp to drive 300Ws rating of PA speakers, and a couple of times ran it into pretty horrible distortion, but my speakers seem to have survived just fine, and you ain't gonna get much more underpowered than that!

Like Rick says, because tweeters typically don't get that much of a share of the energy, especially with bass rigs, they tend to be specified for less power than the LF, and it may be possible to toast some implementations with a very HF rich signal, but that's about it.

The tiny grain of truth that the myth has been constructed round is that if an amp rated at 50w is driven into unlistenable distortion it might be delivering nearer 100W than 50, and that 75W or whatever would be very HF rich. But of course a 100W amp driven to the same level of distortion would be delivering a similar excess over nominal power and melt voice coils even faster.

The huge logical flaw is the conclusion that if you drive nominal 50W into clipping with a matching nominal 50w of speaker it won't damage anything, but if you push the same signal into nominal 100w handling it will. Of course that's complete nonsense.
 
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As stated by another, your MYTH has been debunked numerous times by actual Electrical Engineers that design speakers and amps for a living.[/QUOTE]

Show me? I have had the opposite experience. Where do you think Crutchfield got there info? [OR did you not bother to read?]

What is problem with me mentioning I worked[managed] in High End Audio Store. I was sharing where my experience came from; You?

I also had a Customer who owned Alpha Music in Virginia Beach and worked with him also part time and spent a lot of time there; is that ok?[ I still hang there]

I talked with Mesa Boogie rep there, He mentioned some of their cabinet customers where frying woofers with underpowered amps and for us to make sure we sold right amp with speakers or customers amp was powerful enough and of decent quality before selling Mesa speaker cabinets.

Do you believe your taken serious? Do you believe making rude comments and pulling opinions out of your well...
have value?

You do know just because you think it is a myth does not make it so or do you?

I take your remarks the same as you take us 'Worked in Home Audio Guy's'
 
This is how salesmen sell more stuff. They take technical information and turn into something scary sounding to make you have doubts about what you already own.

They will also spread misinformation to dissuade you from buying any product their store doesn't carry.

ie. I've heard that Steinbergers sound sterile and Hartke cabs sound tinny from reps who couldn't obtain either.
 
"The huge logical flaw is the conclusion that if you drive nominal 50W into clipping with a matching nominal 50w of speaker it won't damage anything, but if you push the same signal into nominal 100w handling it will. Of course that's complete nonsense."[/QUOTE]

If you drive them into hard clipping long enough you will blow both. In my experience this doesn't happen often but when it does usually alcohol is involved:)

Also I have heard many times my 50 watt amp blew up my 200 watt speakers. So what is it that is blowing up so many woofers Home and Pro? I believe nowadays Limiters are saving many a woofer.
 
This is how salesmen sell more stuff. They take technical information and turn into something scary sounding to make you have doubts about what you already own.

They will also spread misinformation to dissuade you from buying any product their store doesn't carry.

ie. I've heard that Steinbergers sound sterile and Hartke cabs sound tinny from reps who couldn't obtain either.

That is true? SOME will do that. This was a factory rep not Sales rep. I was always cautious when dealing with sales rep's. Mesa is a high integrity company IMO. He was actually telling me NOT to sell his speakers to someone with inadequate amp not try to upsale amp also; this was in customers best interest. Best to try to help customers get products that perform well together and there happy; they come back and tell their friends how well they were treated. BUT your right; their are those who will say anything just to get sale and care less about customer or if he ever comes back
 
Once there's a crossover in the system the myth gets even more ludicrous, because the crossover will ensure that the signal getting to the woofer has not the slightest resemblance to a square wave!

Ok then, I am Listening; How do all these woofers blow and like I mentioned in another comment why do I keep hearing my 50 watt amp blew up my 200 watt speakers in Pro, Home and Car audio? I have seen fully extended frozen woofers in speakers [with xovers] One was a guy who plugged them into the wall socket [ he said directions told him to plug them in:)] so I knew what caused that one. I am going by what Designers, experts, repair personnel, etc. have told me over 40 years which jives with information from Crutchfield. If I have been misled I would like to know; SO AGAIN what is causing the countless 'blowing of speakers' [not just tweeters] If I am wrong about the "Myth" and have to give it to Rick James I may not survive:)
 
A square wave is not DC. The signal is A/C alternating positive and negative. It doesn't sound nice but it doesn't do a damn thing to a woofer unless it is too powerful and overheats it or stretches it too far. A 50w amp puts out 100w of square waves at full clip. Speakers get over rated.

Congratulations, you are the first in about 3 or four years to play the high end audio salesman card. A real engineer will be along to fill in the maths.
 
To all of the 'Talkbasser's' that dismiss anything said by 'Home audio guy's' [according to someone:)]

This may make it worse; but I did not work in a Store like Circuit City a Guitar Center equivalent it was a privately owned Boutique Style High End Audio. Me and the Owner handpicked what we sold; we had a few entry level products we liked Nad, Marantz, Denon, Polk Audio but our main products where High End enthusiast products like Mark Levinson, Krell, Linn, Revel Speakers, handful of Tube Power and Preamps; CD Players, Amps and Speakers ranged from 5000-20k each. I got to meet and interact with some talented people and great humans. I spent most of my off time in my friends/customer Music Store [privately owned] and worked part time for him. I was gigging 3-5 nights a week for about 20 years his store was like Toy's are Us was for my son; for me

My intentions are mostly good; I try to post what may help, give info on something I know, be of some value
so I will not mention being a Home Audio Guy incase I get something right or add value wouldn't want to be dismissed when I could have helped:)
 
A square wave is not DC. The signal is A/C alternating positive and negative. It doesn't sound nice but it doesn't do a damn thing to a woofer unless it is too powerful and overheats it or stretches it too far. A 50w amp puts out 100w of square waves at full clip. Speakers get over rated.

Congratulations, you are the first in about 3 or four years to play the high end audio salesman card. A real engineer will be along to fill in the maths.

Thanks I appreciate it, never said I knew anything that an engineer might; only I got to deal with many engineers whom told me what I posted and Crutchfield has on their site.

I didn't attempt to play a card but it did bring all you trolls out of your hole you should be happy.
I am
 
Thanks I appreciate it, never said I knew anything that an engineer might; only I got to deal with many engineers whom told me what I posted and Crutchfield has on their site.

I didn't attempt to play a card but it did bring all you trolls out of your hole you should be happy.
I am

PS; Actually I only assisted the OP took the brunt of it. I also explained why I mentioned my previous work ' not to be mentioned' it was an innocent mistake not an arrogant gesture.
 
hey guys, I may have the opportunity to get my hands on an Orange terror bass 500. The only issue I have is that I've recently learned or underpowering an amp. I currently have a 2x12 800 watt 4ohm speaker. My question is do you think I would have any possibility of damaging either the speaker or the head from underpowering the setup? Any help would be appreciated, thanks guys!
There's no such thing as "underpowering" an amp, in case no one has said it yet.
 
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How you managed to be a member here so long and not see the many posts on this subject by real high end amp designers like agedhorse and Bob Lee boggles the mind. If you had you'd know why everything in that Crutchfield document is 100% wrong.

Well Rick not being an engineer I was told exactly what crutchfield posted by many Engineers for over 40 years whom I then and still believe they were accurate and knowledgeable on the subject just like you seem to believe those you mention but still have not produced their post or at least a post saying what is blowing all those woofers. I am guessing you think Global Warming is a myth because 2 Scientist out of 100,000 said so.

I am going to hold on to my myth and not say it is ok to to use a 75 watt behringer amp into 2 1x15 with 89db efficiency and go ahead and crank it it will be fine you can never be underpowered.

Most of the time I was working and gigging didn't have much time for Forum; I have more time now and was first time I came across this topic.