understanding jazz

[lfmn16]

It looks like you may have read a lot into my reply that was neither meant nor said.

And some people just naturally know what they are doing and write symphonies at the age of eight.

But while "the more you know the better" is generally good advice, you don't have to know everything in order to start understanding.

Which one of these sentences did I take out of context? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

 

[JTE]

And do not forsake the melody. Learn the actual melody of the song and work out how those notes work with the chords. Learn to play it on the bass. Hum it while playing through the changes.

Also understand the bass's function is two-fold (despite the rock attitude some people espouse that it's purely rhythmic). Those are to connect the purely melodic/ harmonic part of music to the purely rhythmic, AND to define the harmony.

To define the harmony is not only to let everyone know what the current chord is,, but how this chord relates to the preceeding one,, and to the next one. A progression of Amin7 to D9 to GMaj7 are all in the same key, in fact they define the tonal center as G major. So simply thinking "ACEG then DF#AC then GBDF#" (or worse, A Dorian to D Mixolydian to G Ionian) leaves out the vital information that these 3 chords as a group define G major and the root are cycling through fourths.

So your passing tones between chords can be out of the key if they lead the ear to the next chord, keeping a harmonic motion that's also working with the rhythm.

 

[phillipkregg]

Which one of these sentences did I take out of context? Looks pretty straight forward to me.

Ok, sure.

No, they don't. That's a ridiculous statement. NOBODY just starts writing symphonies. This is a classic example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Mozart's father was a teacher and composer and taught him music. He started out composing smaller pieces, he didn't wake up one morning on his eighth birthday and write a symphony.

If you notice, I never said that he "woke up one morning on his eighth birthday and wrote a symphony."

My post was about musical pattern recognition. Mozart was born with musical pattern recognition abilities that others are not born with. That's what made him a prodigy.

Having a father who knows music is a good thing, but there are many parents who try to teach their children music without great results. And parents who know nothing about music who have children who are musical geniuses.

Generally? When is it NOT better to know more?

I never said that it's "not better to know more".

What I said was, that is generally good advice, but you don't have to know every scale, every arpeggio, and every chord in order to start understanding how jazz works.

Again, you don't have to know all the patterns upfront. You can get a lot of mileage out of just knowing the major scale (not every scale) and a 2/5/1 progression (not every chord).

 

[bassliner50]

A friend asked me how I would explain jazz to someone who wasn't a musician, analogy was pretty much the only way to approach it, for me. I said to her that most rock music, Western classical music, etc. was very much akin to a play - the various actors do the same lines and the same action with the same sets and costumes every time that play is performed and they try to communicate meaning and emotion to their audience with their interpretation of character, invoking the feelings and emotions of each character in such a way that the audience feels it in a very real and visceral way. and if you send a copy of that play to another group of actors, they can put their own "spin" on it , but the words and the actions are the same, they don't change.

Blues, and some of the rock and country music that has at its base the blues, bluegrass and a few other forms of music in this country are akin to telling stories - the basic plot and characters remain the same, but the details, perambulations, digressions, etc. all depend on the skill, life experience, and the ability of the storyteller to speak to his/her specific audience; some audiences want long, detailed stories, some just want to hear how it all worked out.

But jazz, particularly post-bop jazz, is much more akin to a conversation, a deep conversation, in which the direction of the conversation can twist and turn and embrace a multiplicity of subjects and directions all surrounding and relating to, and ancillary to whatever the original topic of conversation happened to be. All contingent on the depth of knowledge, breadth of vocabulary, and most importantly the intent of those who are involved in the conversation.

The basic premise for playing is this - you have a melody. That melody is supported by a harmonic framework (the chord progression), that the composer chose. When you hear those two things, what do YOU hear that you want to play in response? Yes, the bass is there to supply the foundation for the other instruments, but your line should be a melodic response that defines the harmony AND propels it forward to the next chord. And the next and the next. My former teacher described it with the analogy of learning to drive; when you start out, you aren't really looking much past the windshield and the car in front of you. When you get some experience, you're not looking at anything, you're seeing the whole picture - the car in front of you, the cars ahead, the intersections, what's behind you, etc.

So, sure, scales, arpeggios, yada, yada. That's not vocabulary, that's getting some familiarity with the instrument and working out solutions to fingering and position shifts. The skill set that really means something is to be able to HEAR those things with enough clarity that when you hear that song that you can play the roots to, you can hear not only what the chord quality is (what those other notes are), but you can hear internally what notes you want to play as a response and where those notes are on your instrument. As I've said before countless times, the 3 legs of the tripod are TECHNIQUE (physical approach to the instrument, how to play without tension) UNDERSTANDING (music theory, how functional harmony works) and HEARING ( ear training, being able to identify, sing, and play the intervals, triads, chords with tension etc.).

Nice response to a question with a daunting possibilities.

 

[lfmn16]

Ok, sure.



If you notice, I never said that he "woke up one morning on his eighth birthday and wrote a symphony."

My post was about musical pattern recognition. Mozart was born with musical pattern recognition abilities that others are not born with. That's what made him a prodigy.

Having a father who knows music is a good thing, but there are many parents who try to teach their children music without great results. And parents who know nothing about music who have children who are musical geniuses.



I never said that it's "not better to know more".

What I said was, that is generally good advice, but you don't have to know every scale, every arpeggio, and every chord in order to start understanding how jazz works.

Again, you don't have to know all the patterns upfront. You can get a lot of mileage out of just knowing the major scale (not every scale) and a 2/5/1 progression (not every chord).

Some people don't understand the implications of what they are saying. It's just too exhausting dealing with people like that. They go on my ignore list. I could explain all this to you, but I can't understand it for you. I don't know why some people are so intent on downplaying the benefits of an education.

 

[bass12]

And do not forsake the melody. Learn the actual melody of the song and work out how those notes work with the chords. Learn to play it on the bass. Hum it while playing through the changes.

Also understand the bass's function is two-fold (despite the rock attitude some people espouse that it's purely rhythmic). Those are to connect the purely melodic/ harmonic part of music to the purely rhythmic, AND to define the harmony.

To define the harmony is not only to let everyone know what the current chord is,, but how this chord relates to the preceeding one,, and to the next one. A progression of Amin7 to D9 to GMaj7 are all in the same key, in fact they define the tonal center as G major. So simply thinking "ACEG then DF#AC then GBDF#" (or worse, A Dorian to D Mixolydian to G Ionian) leaves out the vital information that these 3 chords as a group define G major and the root are cycling through fourths.

So your passing tones between chords can be out of the key if they lead the ear to the next chord, keeping a harmonic motion that's also working with the rhythm.

+1 on learning the melodies of the songs. Much more useful than it might seem at first.

 

[coyote1]

Lots of good replies so far.

I would say the first step in ‘understanding’ jazz is that it is, fundamentally, nothing other than music. First always is the melody. A good melody works on its own. The song you’ve given here has a very nice melody. Almost a show tune (which, btw, show tunes are enormous fodder for jazz experimentation).

Next big picture item is accompaniment. Beginning with harmonies (chords). Understand that the ‘rules’ of harmony might indeed have a vast mathematical structure.... but at bottom, they exist because they SOUND GOOD with melodies. The rules work because using them generally provides a tension-resolution cycle behind the melody that supports it and makes it more interesting.

Where ‘jazz’ enters the picture is that jazz harmony becomes more complex, thereby providing even more tension-resolution moments. And those more complex harmonies, in turn, provide a backdrop for spontaneous experimentation with the melody. Often, a harmonized accompaniment becomes so great on its own that new melodies are written to use specifically with it. Such was the case with the song “I Got Rhythm”. The guys coming out of the swing era could do so much with it that it became a standard set of changes (called “rhythm changes”), and it is called at virtually every ‘jazz’ gig or session. It’s a foundation of improvised bebop jazz.

You don’t need to learn every scale there is before turning your attention to harmony. My fave starting point for understanding harmony: understand that virtually all ‘root’ movement is V-I. Five-One. This is standard in classical music, in pop music. in the key of C, the ‘five’ note is G. It resolves naturally to the ‘one’ (C).

Now... no matter whether you’re in major or minor, that holds true.
G resolves to C.
C resolves to F.
F resolves to B flat.
Etc. Each of the first chords on a line is the ‘five’ to the ‘one’ at the end of the line.

So if you are in the key of B flat Major, you can write a chord progression that goes
G > C > F > B flat.
And each step along the way is it’s own little 5>1 resolution.

So then. You don’t need to understand this line yet, but if I now make the chords
G minor 7 > C 7 > F 7 > B flat Major 7,
I have created a ‘jazz’ harmony! All the stuff aside from the root motion creates tensions and resolutions, while the 5>1 root motion is the strongest and most natural sound in western music.

 

[phillipkregg]

Some people don't understand the implications of what they are saying. It's just too exhausting dealing with people like that. They go on my ignore list. I could explain all this to you, but I can't understand it for you. I don't know why some people are so intent on downplaying the benefits of an education.

I think you just proved the point about some people having natural abilities.

Just think, you could have been the Mozart of dramatic overreacting!

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

My second bass teacher was a jazz guitarist,we worked through Rufus Reid's The evolving Bassist (I found it very helpfull for ear training intervals within scales)
Ever week I would get given 4 cords to write a bass line and 16 bar solo for the following week
He was disapionted that I went on to play rock and roll not jazz, but the knowlage is still there.
Go to a teacher too many distractions for me leaning on line.
Cheers! Dave

That teacher's old is showing.
Jazz is incredibly formative.
Dismissive of other styles. That's just plain ignorant.

My 2 cents.

 

[REV]

There are lots of good responses here and I would like to add one additional thing. Listen. Since Jazz is a conversation all the involved parties have to listen to each other. A conversation might start out in one place and then eventually move to another and then move back to the original topic. In a conversation someone is doing the talking and someone is hopefully listening (not just waiting for your turn to talk). In one jazz band I played in for awhile the BL used to chide us about having ink on our noses because we had them buried in the charts. You gotta know what you are talking about if you are going to carry on a meaningful conversation. If you don't know what you're talking about , you might learn something if you just listen.

 

[txhawaii]

Lots of good replies so far.

I would say the first step in ‘understanding’ jazz is that it is, fundamentally, nothing other than music. First always is the melody. A good melody works on its own. The song you’ve given here has a very nice melody. Almost a show tune (which, btw, show tunes are enormous fodder for jazz experimentation).

Next big picture item is accompaniment. Beginning with harmonies (chords). Understand that the ‘rules’ of harmony might indeed have a vast mathematical structure.... but at bottom, they exist because they SOUND GOOD with melodies. The rules work because using them generally provides a tension-resolution cycle behind the melody that supports it and makes it more interesting.

Where ‘jazz’ enters the picture is that jazz harmony becomes more complex, thereby providing even more tension-resolution moments. And those more complex harmonies, in turn, provide a backdrop for spontaneous experimentation with the melody. Often, a harmonized accompaniment becomes so great on its own that new melodies are written to use specifically with it. Such was the case with the song “I Got Rhythm”. The guys coming out of the swing era could do so much with it that it became a standard set of changes (called “rhythm changes”), and it is called at virtually every ‘jazz’ gig or session. It’s a foundation of improvised bebop jazz.

You don’t need to learn every scale there is before turning your attention to harmony. My fave starting point for understanding harmony: understand that virtually all ‘root’ movement is V-I. Five-One. This is standard in classical music, in pop music. in the key of C, the ‘five’ note is G. It resolves naturally to the ‘one’ (C).

Now... no matter whether you’re in major or minor, that holds true.
G resolves to C.
C resolves to F.
F resolves to B flat.
Etc. Each of the first chords on a line is the ‘five’ to the ‘one’ at the end of the line.

So if you are in the key of B flat Major, you can write a chord progression that goes
G > C > F > B flat.
And each step along the way is it’s own little 5>1 resolution.

So then. You don’t need to understand this line yet, but if I now make the chords
G minor 7 > C 7 > F 7 > B flat Major 7,
I have created a ‘jazz’ harmony! All the stuff aside from the root motion creates tensions and resolutions, while the 5>1 root motion is the strongest and most natural sound in western music.

Lots of good replies so far.

I would say the first step in ‘understanding’ jazz is that it is, fundamentally, nothing other than music. First always is the melody. A good melody works on its own. The song you’ve given here has a very nice melody. Almost a show tune (which, btw, show tunes are enormous fodder for jazz experimentation).

Next big picture item is accompaniment. Beginning with harmonies (chords). Understand that the ‘rules’ of harmony might indeed have a vast mathematical structure.... but at bottom, they exist because they SOUND GOOD with melodies. The rules work because using them generally provides a tension-resolution cycle behind the melody that supports it and makes it more interesting.

Where ‘jazz’ enters the picture is that jazz harmony becomes more complex, thereby providing even more tension-resolution moments. And those more complex harmonies, in turn, provide a backdrop for spontaneous experimentation with the melody. Often, a harmonized accompaniment becomes so great on its own that new melodies are written to use specifically with it. Such was the case with the song “I Got Rhythm”. The guys coming out of the swing era could do so much with it that it became a standard set of changes (called “rhythm changes”), and it is called at virtually every ‘jazz’ gig or session. It’s a foundation of improvised bebop jazz.

You don’t need to learn every scale there is before turning your attention to harmony. My fave starting point for understanding harmony: understand that virtually all ‘root’ movement is V-I. Five-One. This is standard in classical music, in pop music. in the key of C, the ‘five’ note is G. It resolves naturally to the ‘one’ (C).

Now... no matter whether you’re in major or minor, that holds true.
G resolves to C.
C resolves to F.
F resolves to B flat.
Etc. Each of the first chords on a line is the ‘five’ to the ‘one’ at the end of the line.

So if you are in the key of B flat Major, you can write a chord progression that goes
G > C > F > B flat.
And each step along the way is it’s own little 5>1 resolution.

So then. You don’t need to understand this line yet, but if I now make the chords
G minor 7 > C 7 > F 7 > B flat Major 7,
I have created a ‘jazz’ harmony! All the stuff aside from the root motion creates tensions and resolutions, while the 5>1 root motion is the strongest and most natural sound in western music.

Before the shutdowns, this wouldn't have made much sense to me but it surprisingly does.

The song I quoted in the original post starts the bass at C going to F Bb Eb F Bb Ab and back to C. If I am thinking of what you are saying that sounds about right with the 5/1, no?

 

[txhawaii]

And do not forsake the melody. Learn the actual melody of the song and work out how those notes work with the chords. Learn to play it on the bass. Hum it while playing through the changes.

Also understand the bass's function is two-fold (despite the rock attitude some people espouse that it's purely rhythmic). Those are to connect the purely melodic/ harmonic part of music to the purely rhythmic, AND to define the harmony.

To define the harmony is not only to let everyone know what the current chord is,, but how this chord relates to the preceeding one,, and to the next one. A progression of Amin7 to D9 to GMaj7 are all in the same key, in fact they define the tonal center as G major. So simply thinking "ACEG then DF#AC then GBDF#" (or worse, A Dorian to D Mixolydian to G Ionian) leaves out the vital information that these 3 chords as a group define G major and the root are cycling through fourths.

So your passing tones between chords can be out of the key if they lead the ear to the next chord, keeping a harmonic motion that's also working with the rhythm.

I assume what you mean by melody you mean the actual song or singing? When I first heard the song I posted about I actually started to play her voice on the bass before actually playing the bass sounds. I guess that is part of what you are suggesting? Makes sense.

 

[txhawaii]

I don't hear much in the way of notes outside the chords with the exception of some chromaticism that resolves to a chord tone. Learn the exact bass line measure-by-measure and figure out what the other notes are doing for the chord progression.

I'm trying but my ear isn't that good. knowing the roots are good but the chromaticism are tougher.

 

[consectaneus]

I think it's best to learn about these concepts in the form of a real tune, that's why I think it's fantastic that you found one that interests you since it should sustain your interest. I hope there is some way you or someone else can transcribe the exact line because that is the beginning of breaking it down and comparing the chords with the line. I like getting inside the thought process of the player and why he/she chose those particular notes and why they sound good with the melody etc. You can teach yourself a lot.

 

[coyote1]

Before the shutdowns, this wouldn't have made much sense to me but it surprisingly does.

The song I quoted in the original post starts the bass at C going to F Bb Eb F Bb Ab and back to C. If I am thinking of what you are saying that sounds about right with the 5/1, no?

C > F > Bb > Eb is indeed a series of 5>1 root movements.
F > Bb > Ab > C starts a new cycle. The F > Bb is a 5>1. The Bb > Ab > C? I’ll have to give it a listen to see what it’s doing.

 

[Doug4321]

I took jazz guitar years ago at college. A room full of acoustic guitars churning away with chord sheets, strange complicated chords and progressions. !!!
After the first few classes I put away the guitar and brought my bass and a little amp. Played roots, or other notes of the chord, plus outside (the key) notes as passing tones. Usually that 1/4 note bebop kinda walking rhythm. Basically you want to shatter the traditional sonic expectations by playing a few weird jazzy notes in passing. If it sounds like a major or minor scale, like in baroque classical music, you’re doing it wrong.

That’s my Jazz story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[GreggBummer]

Jazz is normally a ii-V7-i progression and you play the chord's notes. I let Google find me the chord progression to any song. Use these search words. Chords, name of the song. Once you have the chord names then you play the notes of that chord...

Excellent post. @Malcolm35

 

[InhumanResource]

Excellent post. @Malcolm35

I kind of have issue with it. Jazz is normally all kinds of progressions (though ii V I is the most common) and non chord tones are played ALL the time to add color and illustrate whatever is happening in the rest of the harmony or improv.

Also why on earth are we telling people who are looking for advice to practice partial scales???

 

[ClusterFlux]

But jazz, particularly post-bop jazz, is much more akin to a conversation, a deep conversation, in which the direction of the conversation can twist and turn and embrace a multiplicity of subjects....

Or, you can just say "jazz is genre of music that emphasizes improvisation, is primarily rooted in the blues, and typically uses a theme-and-variation structure."

 

[lfmn16]

There are lots of good responses here and I would like to add one additional thing. Listen. Since Jazz is a conversation all the involved parties have to listen to each other. A conversation might start out in one place and then eventually move to another and then move back to the original topic. In a conversation someone is doing the talking and someone is hopefully listening (not just waiting to talk). In one jazz band I played in for awhile the BL used to chide us about our noses being covered in graphite because we had them buried in the charts. You gotta know what you are talking about if you are going to carry on a meaningful conversation. If you don't know what you're talking about , you might learn something if you just listen.

I had a teacher that basically said becoming an accomplished musician is a three legged stool - practice, performance, listening; you have to do all three.