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understanding jazz

#81
31HZ said:
This thread is like two years of lessons.
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This is the fun Talk Bass. I've printed things off of threads and I put them in my "notebook". I sometimes come back to them months later during an early morning woodshed session and have an "a-ha" moment. It's awesome.

For the vile, disgusting, awfulness on the internet... strangers helping strangers learn more about their art.... amazing.
 
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#82
consectaneus said:
I think I remember one of the talking heads on the Ken Burns Jazz documentary crediting Louis Armstrong of putting the blues in Jazz so it's been a part of it for a long time. I thought relating jazz to something you know could demystify it a little. I'm a novice player and my little discoveries are part of the joy in life, so to the extent I can pass something along I'm happy.

Examining Tommy's bass line, I hear a standard blues I-IV-V chord progression built primarily on the 1-3-5-6-5-3-1 pattern you describe, played with a shuffle feel. A great Texas tradition. I don't know if there is a similar "standard" progression in the jazz blues tradition, but the above 12 bar progression for Paul Chambers' blues in Bb as interpreted by Jim Stinnett goes:

I-IV-I-I-IV-IV-I-VI-II-V with a two bar I-VI-II-V back to the I. Unlike Texas Flood, the jazz blues line is of course played with straight quarter notes, four to the bar. That turn around is a signature of the style. More chords, delayed resolution back to the one means more interesting tension and release (to my ear), maybe more opportunity for interesting musical possibilities.

Stinnett doesn't mention where that line comes from, but I've played it along with Sonny Rollins Tenor Madness, and it fits. (I use the YouTube tools to slow it down to 3/4). It's a blast playing with Rollins, Coltrane, Garland, and Jones. Like taking a joy ride in a borrowed Lamborghini. I urge you to try it! It's just 12 bars, and I play the same line over and over to every solo, but that's o.k. It's actually cool listening to how different the same line sounds with the various soloists harmonizing over the top. I don't know of a more fun and painless way to see if this kind of thing is for you.

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honestly, i've never taken the time to really listen to the chords of a song as i was focused on the bass notes. when I "heard" Pride and Joy (@Spin Doctor) and just played 1/4 and 1/8 notes on the Eb Ab and Bb (didn't want to detune my bass), or the 1-IV-V, it all dawned on me. maybe i do have more jazz in me than I really know. I feel the blues so maybe this jazz stuff is just a bit more chromaticism and theory. and playing SVR with no frills sounds like zz top! LOL
 
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#83
txhawaii said:
honestly, i've never taken the time to really listen to the chords of a song as i was focused on the bass notes. when I "heard" Pride and Joy (@Spin Doctor) and just played 1/4 and 1/8 notes on the Eb Ab and Bb (didn't want to detune my bass), or the 1-IV-V, it all dawned on me. maybe i do have more jazz in me than I really know. I feel the blues so maybe this jazz stuff is just a bit more chromaticism and theory. and playing SVR with no frills sounds like zz top! LOL
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I'm no expert in any of this so take it for the grain of salt it's worth. But I have done some blues playing and I have worked on walking lines for jazz standards, so I've observed some things through doing that.

For a bassist, there are a lot of similarities between these two styles. You'll find that the chord changes in jazz and blues vary; blues changes are quite often very formulaic with I-IV-V and variations thereof. Jazz changes are more varied, but there are formulas there, too, and of course nothing is set in stone with either.

The similarities to my mind have to do with arpeggiation; both of these genres have you walking through arpeggios to string changes together, using quarter notes in many cases. If you work on arpeggios and work on stringing those arpeggios together through various chord changes, you'll be gaining a lot that will help you from both sides.

That's about as much as I have, there are many people here with a lot more understanding than I have. Good luck!
 
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#84
After absorbing lots of this forum, I'm understanding how to look at jazz and I also realize I do have some knowledge that might help me get their further in regards to understanding jazz.

Take the country western song "You Never Even Called Me By My Name." The song is a simple affair with a I-V-IV in the key of C. The chorus is a 1-3-5-3 shuffle in C E and F. There are a few fills and some approach notes but its a simple as it gets.

How would you "jazz it up?"

 
#86
txhawaii said:
After absorbing lots of this forum, I'm understanding how to look at jazz and I also realize I do have some knowledge that might help me get their further in regards to understanding jazz.

Take the country western song "You Never Even Called Me By My Name." The song is a simple affair with a I-V-IV in the key of C. The chorus is a 1-3-5-3 shuffle in C E and F. There are a few fills and some approach notes but its a simple as it gets.

How would you "jazz it up?"

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Ray Charles was doing that almost 60 years ago. The chords don't matter. The thing that does matter is time and sound.

 
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#88
I think the beauty of jazz is the "no rules" rule. I know, that is oxymoronic, but then so is "understanding jazz" if you think about it. I would go so far as to say if someone understands jazz, they are doing it wrong. There are no limits to improvisation. If it is wrong, yet sounds good, then it is right.
 
#89
Papuzzo said:
I think the beauty of jazz is the "no rules" rule. I know, that is oxymoronic, but then so is "understanding jazz" if you think about it. I would go so far as to say if someone understands jazz, they are doing it wrong. There are no limits to improvisation. If it is wrong, yet sounds good, then it is right.
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Can't say I agree with this. Most people who are into jazz know what they are doing, or at least understand the approach. To presume someone like Herbie Hancock is doing it wrong is not believable, because he absolutely understands it. But then, most people think jazz is some kind of magic. It's not.

It can't be wrong and sound good. It just is what it is, and there's a reason for it
 
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#90
Spin Doctor said:
Can't say I agree with this. Most people who are into jazz know what they are doing, or at least understand the approach. To presume someone like Herbie Hancock is doing it wrong is not believable, because he absolutely understands it. But then, most people think jazz is some kind of magic. It's not.

It can't be wrong and sound good. It just is what it is, and there's a reason for it
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Would you say the following track is Jazz or just some instrumental jamming?
A bass impro around 4:03

Mike Mitchell on drums and Matt Ramsey on bass. The album is titled Three-O.

 
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#91
Whousedtoplay said:
Would you say the following track is Jazz or just some instrumental jamming?
A bass impro around 4:03

Mike Mitchell on drums and Matt Ramsey on bass. The album is titled Three-O.

Click to expand...

To me jazz is social music that's relavant to the times. To others, it's 80 year old songs containing a bunch of ii-V-I progressions.

It sounds social to me. Why do you ask?
 
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#93
Papuzzo said:
I think the beauty of jazz is the "no rules" rule.
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Huh?

There are just as many rules in jazz as any other genre. You can't just play whatever you want over the changes, especially as a bass player. Even free jazz isn't completely unstructured.


I would go so far as to say if someone understands jazz, they are doing it wrong.
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I wouldn't. There are a lot of musicians who spend years learning music theory in order to play jazz. I can't imagine how you can successfully solo over "Giant's Steps" if you don't have some understanding of the tune.


There are no limits to improvisation.
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Sadly, for everyone not named "Keith Jarret," there are limits. :D Lots of jazz musicians end up copying the styles and methods of particularly influential predecessors; I think it would be very difficult today to find any sax player whose vocabulary isn't drawn heavily from Parker and Trane.

One of the challenges of jazz, after decades of brilliant improvisers innovating in the genre, is doing something that is truly innovative and engaging.
 
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#97
I am not a jazz player, all I have done is worked on scales and arpeggios to be able to play with a singer-songwriter pal with a fondness for odd chords and to fake bass parts when some friend splay standards.

Regarding the OP's first question, I can't help you. People study jazz all their lives in an effort to answer your question, or at least four years to get a BA in music.

Nobody's going to be able to answer you in its entirety in a response here on TB.
 

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