understanding jazz

[Spin Doctor]

I came here to say that this is the best single encapsulation/simile post that I've ever read on this -- and maybe any -- forum.

Thank you, @Ed Fuqua !

Yeah Ed has been at this jazz thing for a minute or two...

 

[txhawaii]

You should be able to learn that song note for note without understanding the underlying theory.

My last two years of high school I was asked to play in a university big band. I could read standard music notation, but had almost no understanding of music theory. Also I had no idea how to read and interpret jazz chord notation, and the bass parts for at least half of the tunes were written primarily with chord notation.

The band director provide music and also recordings of the actual arrangement. I learned the recording note for note at first. Then I learned patterns well enough that I could use them freely over the changes. This is possible because in the form of a song, the changes tend to be organized into sections that repeat over and over again. For example you might have a form like AABA or ABAA. There are of course also sections were the form might be broken, so I had to play those sections note for note.

Later when I went to college I took three semester of classical music theory. These semesters covered harmonization of diatonic 7 chords in the major and minor keys, and how to write smooth voice leading with four part harmony. Diatonic means only the notes that belong to a key signature are involved, so there are no chromatic or altered tones. Knowing what notes to consider diatonic in jazz chord progressions can be tricky...but you don't need to delve too far into that right now.

My foundation in classical theory gave me what I needed to learn how to read and interpret jazz chord notation. One of the young jazz guitar instructors on staff mentored me on how to read jazz chord notation, answered my questions, and jammed after hours once a week, so I had a chance to learn and grown.

In it simplest form, a walking bass line is just the root note played in quarter notes. As you get more complicated you start adding chord tones. First add the 5th 1,5,1,5 |CGCG|. Then try using the notes of the triad 1,3,5,1 |CEGC|...or |CCEG|...or |CEGG|. The ideas is you should explore all the possibilities...however, One rule to start with, usually you start the downbeat of a measure on the root of a chord, but this is a rule you can learn to break later. Continue developing by integrating all four notes of the 7th chord 1,3,5,7 |CEGB|. Are you might want to try a major 6th chord. |1,3,5,6|1,6,5,3,|1 |CEGA|CAGE|C You should recognize this as the bass line to Glenn Millers' "In the Mood"...also many 50 era songs use this bass line.

The next step can be adding diatonic none chord tones. For example if you are playing I to V, you might play something like |1,2,3,4|5...| |CDEF|G...|Note the 5 is actually the 1 (root) of the V chord. Essentially you are walking up from the I chord to the V chord. Note that 1,2,3,4 is what I call a linear line; when you play 1,3,5,7 it is what I call an arpeggiated line.

You can also throw in chromatic notes that are not diatonic. For example if you were play I to IV you could play |1,3,5,b5|4...| |CEGGb|F...| Note the 4 is actually the 1 (root) of the IV chord. Some might think of this as |1,3,5,#4|4...| |CEGF#|F...| The #4 and b5 are the same tone, but have a different name. When different notes are actually the same pitch, we call them enharmonic.

If you want to to learn how to improvise this sort of bass line, you need to know the major and minor keys; the diatonic 7th chords and the major and minor 6th chords; and how to read jazz chord notation. I also suggest learning harmonization of the major and minor keys up to at least the 7th chords.

Harmonization in this context basically means you know the shape of the seven diatonic 7th chords in major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and jazz/melodic minor. Having this knowledge helps determine how each chord functions within the progression. The idea is to analyze a chord progression and decide which notes are diatonic. Jazz tends to wander around instead of staying firmly in one key center, so it tends to get pretty complicated.

The hardest part about reading jazz chord notation is there are multiple ways to write out most chords and you have to be able to instantaneously recognize and interpret all of them. For example D minor7 can be written D-7.

Here's an online resource that you may find useful: [Bob magnusson] the_art_of_walking_bass_a_method_(book_za.org)

Thank

You should be able to learn that song note for note without understanding the underlying theory.

My last two years of high school I was asked to play in a university big band. I could read standard music notation, but had almost no understanding of music theory. Also I had no idea how to read and interpret jazz chord notation, and the bass parts for at least half of the tunes were written primarily with chord notation.

The band director provide music and also recordings of the actual arrangement. I learned the recording note for note at first. Then I learned patterns well enough that I could use them freely over the changes. This is possible because in the form of a song, the changes tend to be organized into sections that repeat over and over again. For example you might have a form like AABA or ABAA. There are of course also sections were the form might be broken, so I had to play those sections note for note.

Later when I went to college I took three semester of classical music theory. These semesters covered harmonization of diatonic 7 chords in the major and minor keys, and how to write smooth voice leading with four part harmony. Diatonic means only the notes that belong to a key signature are involved, so there are no chromatic or altered tones. Knowing what notes to consider diatonic in jazz chord progressions can be tricky...but you don't need to delve too far into that right now.

My foundation in classical theory gave me what I needed to learn how to read and interpret jazz chord notation. One of the young jazz guitar instructors on staff mentored me on how to read jazz chord notation, answered my questions, and jammed after hours once a week, so I had a chance to learn and grown.

In it simplest form, a walking bass line is just the root note played in quarter notes. As you get more complicated you start adding chord tones. First add the 5th 1,5,1,5 |CGCG|. Then try using the notes of the triad 1,3,5,1 |CEGC|...or |CCEG|...or |CEGG|. The ideas is you should explore all the possibilities...however, One rule to start with, usually you start the downbeat of a measure on the root of a chord, but this is a rule you can learn to break later. Continue developing by integrating all four notes of the 7th chord 1,3,5,7 |CEGB|. Are you might want to try a major 6th chord. |1,3,5,6|1,6,5,3,|1 |CEGA|CAGE|C You should recognize this as the bass line to Glenn Millers' "In the Mood"...also many 50 era songs use this bass line.

The next step can be adding diatonic none chord tones. For example if you are playing I to V, you might play something like |1,2,3,4|5...| |CDEF|G...|Note the 5 is actually the 1 (root) of the V chord. Essentially you are walking up from the I chord to the V chord. Note that 1,2,3,4 is what I call a linear line; when you play 1,3,5,7 it is what I call an arpeggiated line.

You can also throw in chromatic notes that are not diatonic. For example if you were play I to IV you could play |1,3,5,b5|4...| |CEGGb|F...| Note the 4 is actually the 1 (root) of the IV chord. Some might think of this as |1,3,5,#4|4...| |CEGF#|F...| The #4 and b5 are the same tone, but have a different name. When different notes are actually the same pitch, we call them enharmonic.

If you want to to learn how to improvise this sort of bass line, you need to know the major and minor keys; the diatonic 7th chords and the major and minor 6th chords; and how to read jazz chord notation. I also suggest learning harmonization of the major and minor keys up to at least the 7th chords.

Harmonization in this context basically means you know the shape of the seven diatonic 7th chords in major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and jazz/melodic minor. Having this knowledge helps determine how each chord functions within the progression. The idea is to analyze a chord progression and decide which notes are diatonic. Jazz tends to wander around instead of staying firmly in one key center, so it tends to get pretty complicated.

The hardest part about reading jazz chord notation is there are multiple ways to write out most chords and you have to be able to instantaneously recognize and interpret all of them. For example D minor7 can be written D-7.

Here's an online resource that you may find useful: [Bob magnusson] the_art_of_walking_bass_a_method_(book_za.org)

Thank you your time in writing all this out. It will all take time to learn.

 

[txhawaii]

Just FYI you couldn't have picked a prettier tune. Yoko Kanno is such a treasure and so versatile.
A few of her other tunes that I just love:







She is so creative and has written so many pieces that should really be celebrated as master works.

Here is a long sample for those who are interested.

I don't really watch much anime but was really taken back by the quality of Cowboy Bebop and their musical scores played really nicely. Kano has such a melodic voice that I couldn't help but to love that song and some of her other work.

 

[J_Bass]

If you want to play the tune, transcribe it, memorize it and play it.

If you want to play Jazz, welcome to a life long journey. Jazz is the superior art.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank


Thank you your time in writing all this out. It will all take time to learn.

There is a lot to learn, but it's a lifetime journey. Take your time, make some good music along the way, and most importantly, Injoy! (pun/word play intended)

 

[txhawaii]

To get a grip on jazz, I recommend a beginner to focus on only 2 "songs". The 12 bar blues, and I Got Rythm - AKA 'Rythm Changes'. Learn the many common chord substitutions for each of these "songs". These translate through much of standard jazz.

I got the simple blues down as I can grasp Tommy Shannon and country western. I grew up in Texas and that music was the background of my childhood. (btw I witnessed the greatness of SRV in April of 1990 at a festival. I was in hs and was more obsessed with the Cure at the time and wished I had absorbed that greatness as he died in the fall that same year.) I just can't make that jump from blues to jazz as it seems so complicated but maybe deep inside, it really isn't.

 

[Acoop]

This tune is a ballad first, done in a jazz 'style', groove/feel. It's not what I'd call a jazz tune. ... I wonder if it came off a musical? ... Anyway, if you looking to approach music 'as in' a jazz style. ... it's a good idea to have some understanding of song form and why some chords are leading chords that draw you in a direction. ...
If a song starts on the one it's blues, rock or country. If it starts on the 2,5,1, it's jazz. ... But they all still start on the one. ... 'One' is the key the song is in or centers on.
Nearly all songs follow a 1, 4, 5 form. (Folk music) Don't ask why. ... Jazz tunes take longer, 'slow drive' through that journey to get back to the one. ... That's where understanding leading tones/chords will help get you there. ... (Learn the circle of fifths)
Approaching jazz tunes is knowing in what direction the song is going and deciding how many notes 'you' should select to get there. ... Sometimes, in a ballad like this tune I'd suggest 'less is more'. ... Try playing the root and the five, then the leading tone to the next chord. ... The leading tone is the note just above or just below the next note/key/chord.
There are many ways of looking at jazz. ... I always hear it as a conversation between instruments.
Good for you for taking that leap. ... It'll help in whatever music you are playing.

 

[consectaneus]

I just can't make that jump from blues to jazz as it seems so complicated but maybe deep inside, it really isn't.

It doesn't get more jazz than a Paul Chambers 12 bar blues in Bb. Dip your toe in the water. You might get hooked like I did! At the very least it's fun and time well spent!

 

[txhawaii]

It doesn't get more jazz than a Paul Chambers 12 bar blues in Bb. Dip your toe in the water. You might get hooked like I did! At the very least it's fun and time well spent!

This is great. But how is this different from what Tommy Shannon plays? I easily grasp a 1-3-5-6-5-3-1 blues pattern but still cannot grasp a jazz pattern.

 

[txhawaii]

This tune is a ballad first, done in a jazz 'style', groove/feel. It's not what I'd call a jazz tune. ... I wonder if it came off a musical? ... Anyway, if you looking to approach music 'as in' a jazz style. ... it's a good idea to have some understanding of song form and why some chords are leading chords that draw you in a direction. ...
If a song starts on the one it's blues, rock or country. If it starts on the 2,5,1, it's jazz. ... But they all still start on the one. ... 'One' is the key the song is in or centers on.
Nearly all songs follow a 1, 4, 5 form. (Folk music) Don't ask why. ... Jazz tunes take longer, 'slow drive' through that journey to get back to the one. ... That's where understanding leading tones/chords will help get you there. ... (Learn the circle of fifths)
Approaching jazz tunes is knowing in what direction the song is going and deciding how many notes 'you' should select to get there. ... Sometimes, in a ballad like this tune I'd suggest 'less is more'. ... Try playing the root and the five, then the leading tone to the next chord. ... The leading tone is the note just above or just below the next note/key/chord.
There are many ways of looking at jazz. ... I always hear it as a conversation between instruments.
Good for you for taking that leap. ... It'll help in whatever music you are playing.

Its actually a song from a Japanese animation show called Cowboy Bebop. Thanks for the info.

 

[Spin Doctor]

But how is this (jazz blues) different from what Tommy Shannon plays? I easily grasp a 1-3-5-6-5-3-1 blues pattern but still cannot grasp a jazz pattern.

From a basic standpoint, jazz blues and what I call electric blues are more similar than they are different. The differences at the most basic level are the feel and execution. Electric blues has more of a shuffle feel and jazz blues has a swing feel. In electric blues, the basslines tend to not wander far off the mark, and in jazz blues, you can walk the line however you want, as long as you outline the chords.

A main and crucial difference is that jazz blues takes the I-IV-V progression and using chord substitutions, re-harmonization and other musical devices it goes to another level. It's still the blues. But it doesn't have to be a standard 12 bar format.

Most blues chord progressions are 12 bars long, although there are also 8, 14, 16, 24 or more bar blues changes. So, there are many, many different sets of blues progressions, going from the basic original blues to the more modern variations like the bebop and Coltrane blues changes or the changes played by Miles Davis or Thelonious Monk. The foundation however stays the 12 bar blues with a set of 3 chord changes.

If you listen to these two examples of the blues, you should be able to hear the similarities as well as the differences. If you can't hear the differences at first, keep listening until you get it. That is crucial. It's not an intellectual exercise. You have to just get it.



.

 

[txhawaii]

From a basic standpoint, jazz blues and what I call electric blues are more similar than they are different. The differences at the most basic level are the feel and execution. Electric blues has more of a shuffle feel and jazz blues has a swing feel. In electric blues, the basslines tend to not wander far off the mark, and in jazz blues, you can walk the line however you want, as long as you outline the chords.

A main and crucial difference is that jazz blues takes the I-IV-V progression and using chord substitutions, re-harmonization and other musical devices it goes to another level. It's still the blues. But it doesn't have to be a standard 12 bar format.

Most blues chord progressions are 12 bars long, although there are also 8, 14, 16, 24 or more bar blues changes. So, there are many, many different sets of blues progressions, going from the basic original blues to the more modern variations like the bebop and Coltrane blues changes or the changes played by Miles Davis or Thelonious Monk. The foundation however stays the 12 bar blues with a set of 3 chord changes.

If you listen to these two examples of the blues, you should be able to hear the similarities as well as the differences. If you can't hear the differences at first, keep listening until you get it. That is crucial. It's not an intellectual exercise. You have to just get it.



.

Aaaaaahhhhhhh...interesting. Will have to work on my ear more but this is interesting.

"jazz blues, you can walk the line however you want, as long as you outline the chords"
--I said I can't grasp it but maybe its because I need to work on understanding chords more. From what everyone is writing...it seems its all about outlining the chords.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Aaaaaahhhhhhh...interesting. Will have to work on my ear more but this is interesting.

"jazz blues, you can walk the line however you want, as long as you outline the chords"
--I said I can't grasp it but maybe its because I need to work on understanding chords more. From what everyone is writing...it seems its all about outlining the chords.

Everything is ALWAYS about outlining chords... But how you do that can vary. The more you work with it, the easier it gets and the more creative you can get.

Here's the thing to remember: None of this stuff is hard. It's just unfamiliar. You gotta do a lot of listening to, and copying the music you want to play to be authentic. It's the same process you used when learning to talk when you were a baby. You copied everything that everybody said (transcribing) and you never shutup (constant practice)

 

[txhawaii]

Everything is ALWAYS about outlining chords... But how you do that can vary. The more you work with it, the easier it gets and the more creative you can get.

Here's the thing to remember: None of this stuff is hard. It's just unfamiliar.

this is turning from a bass lesson to a life lesson. i love this. you are a solid mentor. thank you.

 

[Spin Doctor]

this is turning from a bass lesson to a life lesson. i love this. you are a solid mentor. thank you.

Hey thanks. Be aware that this stuff takes time. When I started my jazz band, I'd only been playing bass for 3 years and I'd never even touched a bass before that. I was 50 years old at the time so I had a lot of catching up to do and it was definitely frustrating sometimes. I had a really good teacher though. Some say, one of the best on the planet and I'd only started lessons because I found out he lived down the street from me. I figured, "hey, why not"?

That group has been together through 7 solid years of constant gigging and honestly, I feel I'm just starting to get it. But they were patient with me because I have a strong work ethic. I practice constantly, because I effin' love this stuff. I love the process of learning music. But, having people to play with helps when it comes to leaning it. You have to be able to deal with whatever happens while you're in the heat of battle.

Having said that, you can do a lot on your own and be ready when the Covid lifts and you can put something together.

 

[LBS-bass]

I came here to say that this is the best single encapsulation/simile post that I've ever read on this -- and maybe any -- forum.

Thank you, @Ed Fuqua !

And still somebody wants to fight with him. It's like when I see people fighting with Agedhorse about the amps he designed.

 

[Spin Doctor]

And still somebody wants to fight with him. It's like when I see people fighting with Agedhorse about the amps he designed.

Lol, I think that's because they are both pretty direct about how they think about things and in their delivery. However, I have instructional material that Ed has played on, and my Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 is my main gigging amp. So both of those guys figures in my musical experience in a very real way.

 

[txhawaii]

Hey thanks. Be aware that this stuff takes time. When I started my jazz band, I'd only been playing bass for 3 years and I'd never even touched a bass before that. I was 50 years old at the time so I had a lot of catching up to do and it was definitely frustrating sometimes. I had a really good teacher though. Some say, one of the best on the planet and I'd only started lessons because I found out he lived down the street from me. I figured, "hey, why not"?

That group has been together through 7 solid years of constant gigging and honestly, I feel I'm just starting to get it. But they were patient with me because I have a strong work ethic. I practice constantly, because I effin' love this stuff. I love the process of learning music. But, having people to play with helps when it comes to leaning it. You have to be able to deal with whatever happens while you're in the heat of battle.

Having said that, you can do a lot on your own and be ready when the Covid lifts and you can put something together.

thats good to know. 49 is around the corner and I've finally decided to learn music instead of just thumping along. i gave miles and srv a couple of spins and I heard what you are asking me to listen for. tommy shannon is galloping rather shuffling along pulling the music along with him and miles is roughly doing the same. they are very much the same feel but different in that musical way.

 

[consectaneus]

This is great. But how is this different from what Tommy Shannon plays? I easily grasp a 1-3-5-6-5-3-1 blues pattern but still cannot grasp a jazz pattern.

I think I remember one of the talking heads on the Ken Burns Jazz documentary crediting Louis Armstrong of putting the blues in Jazz so it's been a part of it for a long time. I thought relating jazz to something you know could demystify it a little. I'm a novice player and my little discoveries are part of the joy in life, so to the extent I can pass something along I'm happy.

Examining Tommy's bass line, I hear a standard blues I-IV-V chord progression built primarily on the 1-3-5-6-5-3-1 pattern you describe, played with a shuffle feel. A great Texas tradition. I don't know if there is a similar "standard" progression in the jazz blues tradition, but the above 12 bar progression for Paul Chambers' blues in Bb as interpreted by Jim Stinnett goes:

I-IV-I-I-IV-IV-I-VI-II-V with a two bar I-VI-II-V back to the I. Unlike Texas Flood, the jazz blues line is of course played with straight quarter notes, four to the bar. That turn around is a signature of the style. More chords, delayed resolution back to the one means more interesting tension and release (to my ear), maybe more opportunity for interesting musical possibilities.

Stinnett doesn't mention where that line comes from, but I've played it along with Sonny Rollins Tenor Madness, and it fits. (I use the YouTube tools to slow it down to 3/4). It's a blast playing with Rollins, Coltrane, Garland, and Jones. Like taking a joy ride in a borrowed Lamborghini. I urge you to try it! It's just 12 bars, and I play the same line over and over to every solo, but that's o.k. It's actually cool listening to how different the same line sounds with the various soloists harmonizing over the top. I don't know of a more fun and painless way to see if this kind of thing is for you.

 

[31HZ]

This thread is like two years of lessons.