Unusual Chord?

[TL5]

This thread makes me laugh.
As I see it, most answers are valid looked at one way or another.
Without any context, it's just hair splitting.

You're exactly right.

Dadd9(no3rd) is like saying, "My good man, It may be time to think about applying some pressure to your braking system and decreasing your rate of progress to a halt."


Dsus2 communicates the same thing by saying, "Stop."

 

[Stick_Player]

You still missed the point.

I see X2 or Xsus2 all the time. I can't recall a single time seeing a xadd9(no 3rd) written on a contemporary chart.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, in theory or the real world - only that I can't recall ever seeing it written that way.
Your breakdown of that section of the chart may very well be spot on, but there's still not an add9 (no 3rd) written there, nor did you produce one.

Correct, there is no "add9 (no 3rd)" in your example. I did not state that there was one. There are incidences of ambiguous chord labeling, though (i.e, home-made chart ). The OP produced the "add9 (no 3rd)" chord - refer to his initial post for correct example.

Dadd9(no3rd) is like saying, "My good man, It may be time to think about applying some pressure to your braking system and decreasing your rate of progress to a halt."

Dsus2 communicates the same thing by saying, "Stop."

I supplied several links containing the information to differentiate these chord spellings and their meanings/sounds. If you are relying on the examples you offered for reference, they are not accurate nor consistent.

Well Stickplayer persists in maintaining that the same three notes with different voicings have different names even though other chords do not.

My goodness. Cite these incidences for me. I'll be more than happy to defog you.

If I see D2 and a Dadd2 in the same chart, I treat them differently. The D2 is a sus2 while the Dadd2 will keep the third.
That may be wrong - in theory - but it's what works in application.

Can you explain your inconsistent statement when referring to measure 57 of your 2nd example. Gb2/Bb?

By the way... I will assume that the chord notation in your 2nd and 3rd charts are attempting to indicate inversions or the desired bass note for the given chord. However, the usual practice is to use a 'slash' NOT a 'horizontal' line. Using a 'horizontal' line is reserved to indicate poly-chords -- two independent chords sounding simultaneously.

 

[slybass3000]

That's not a home-made chart.

90% of the time I'm playing from a "Rhythm Score" with little written in other than chord names and the rhythm.
Specific lines can/will be notated.

When I get a home-made chart - it will be a Nashville Number Chart - almost without fail.

Examples of the rhythm score:
Both of these were played last week:

and

If I see D2 and a Dadd2 in the same chart, I treat them differently. The D2 is a sus2 while the Dadd2 will keep the third.
That may be wrong - in theory - but it's what works in application.

Please, I don't know you, but you are making a fool of yourself with your home-made charts.

When I say these are not actual pro charts is because the person who write them don't know much about theory and how to translate his/her music efficiently on paper even if it is made with a music software. An other proof is the fact that inversions of chords are written as polychords which mean something else. So obviously the person making these charts don't know too much about D2, DMaj9 and Dadd9no3.

It is like that Wikipedia page about sus2 where it is full of wrong informations about chords and theory.

 

[slybass3000]

Obviously, Stick and I are on the same page here. I wrote the exact same thing without reading his reply

 

[Crazyeelboy]

I have a basic question about this. You guys clearly know loads more about this than I so I'd appreciate some guidance. I thought a Dsus2 would essentially be based upon a triad where the 2nd (E) in this case replaces the 3rd and a Dadd9 would be a full triad with the 9 added (D F# A E). Is this right so far?

From this then, wouldn't we have to know more about what's going on in the piece to tell if it is a Dsus2 or a Dadd9 with the 3rd omitted (Dadd9 no3)? It would seem to me that the only time you would use a Dadd9 no3 designation or the Dmin add9 no3 designation would be when you know which third you need for the chord but for whatever reason you don't want to sound the third. But in the end, isn't the same effect achieved by just going with Dsus9 if you are not going to sound the 3 anyway?

This is a question, not a position, so please school me!

 

[slybass3000]

This thread makes me laugh.

It actually makes me cry because there is a debate also here on real charts written by real pro musicians, pro songwriters, pro arrangers and composers and I can assure you that they know how to write chord symbols that don't need a lexique to understand vs locally used home-made charts that are used on amateur settings.

This debate is about what is used on real union gigs and amateurs's gigs.

 

[TL5]

The OP produced the "add9 (no 3rd)" chord - refer to his initial post for correct example.

There's not a chart with that designation in the OP's initial post. I re-scanned the first couple pages and the links provided, and I see that referenced but not in use on a contemporary chart.
I've never said, You're wrong. All I'm saying is I can't recall seeing that on a chart in practical application.

By the way... I will assume that the chord notation in your 2nd and 3rd charts are attempting to indicate inversions or the desired bass note for the given chord..

Attempt?
Yes, it indicates the bass note. The horizontal line may not fit your idea of perfection, but it's quite commonly displayed that way in the real world. I can produce numerous examples of professionally published lead sheets and rhythm scores with the bass movement marked in that fashion. Maybe you're the one who needs to get out more (referencing you're earlier insult).
(PM me for links of examples or for the full score of any previous samples.)

Can you explain your inconsistent statement when referring to measure 57 of your 2nd example. Gb2/Bb?

I can only explain how I'd approach it.
I think it was quite intentional, because the practical application is exactly as I stated earlier.
Gb2 would have Gb, Ab, and Db. The arranger specifically wanted the third (Bb) in the bass for the ascending line, but not in the instruments playing the upper harmony (guitar, piano, synth?).

Of course that could have been written as Gbadd2, but that would put the Bb in the upper harmony instruments and it would have failed to specify a Bb as the bass guitar note. Neither of which the arranger wanted.

 

[Stick_Player]

I have a basic question about this. You guys clearly know loads more about this than I so I'd appreciate some guidance. I thought a Dsus2 would essentially be based upon a triad where the 2nd (E) in this case replaces the 3rd and a Dadd9 would be a full triad with the 9 added (D F# A E). Is this right so far?

From this then, wouldn't we have to know more about what's going on in the piece to tell if it is a Dsus2 or a Dadd9 with the 3rd omitted (Dadd9 no3)? It would seem to me that the only time you would use a Dadd9 no3 designation or the Dmin add9 no3 designation would be when you know which third you need for the chord but for whatever reason you don't want to sound the third. But in the end, isn't the same effect achieved by just going with Dsus9 if you are not going to sound the 3 anyway?

This is a question, not a position, so please school me!

I don't think you need any schoolin'. I agree with everything you've stated, except: "But in the end, isn't the same effect achieved by just going with Dsus9 if you are not going to sound the 3 anyway?"

I wouldn't use the label "Dsus9". You might get interpretations of the chord with these notes: D, G, A, E.

I have explained my different interpretations between Dsus2 and Dadd9(no 3rd) ad naseum.

As far as distinguishing between "Dadd9 no3" or "Dmin add9 no3" - same notes D, A, E - it would depend on the key that you are in if you want to get most correct.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

Thanks. The sus9 was a typo (it's late in Moscow). I meant sus2 of course.

 

[Febs]

I've been going through a bunch of charts looking for examples of either one of these notations. Ironically, I didn't find an example of either, but I did find one that contained "Eb (add F)" and "Bb (add C)."

 

[Stick_Player]

There's not a chart with that designation in the OP's initial post. I re-scanned the first couple pages and the links provided, and I see that referenced but not in use on a contemporary chart.
I've never said, You're wrong. All I'm saying is I can't recall seeing that on a chart in practical application.

Should I post a home-made chart with this voicing? Will that validate it? TL5, if you basing your position on what you "can't recall seeing that on a chart in practical application", this is an incomplete experience. Once again, your examples have holes in them - they are inconsistent and not well noted.

Attempt?
Yes, it indicates the bass note. The horizontal line may not fit your idea of perfection, but it's quite commonly displayed that way in the real world. I can produce numerous examples of professionally published lead sheets and rhythm scores with the bass movement marked in that fashion. Maybe you're the one who needs to get out more (referencing you're earlier insult).
(PM me for links of examples or for the full score of any previous samples.)

"Slash" chords are simply the noted chord with an indication of the desired bass. These are a more modern versions of Figured Bass - since MOST people can't read Roman Numerals with inferiors plus having to know what key they are in.

Poly-chords are noted with the use of a "Horizontal" line - common (and correct) method. The "Horizontal" line indicates that there are TWO independent chords to be sounded simultaneously And guess what? Either or both of those chords could ALSO have a "Slash" to indicate, further, an inversion or bass note.

I can only explain how I'd approach it.
I think it was quite intentional, because the practical application is exactly as I stated earlier.
Gb2 would have Gb, Ab, and Db. The arranger specifically wanted the third (Bb) in the bass for the ascending line, but not in the instruments playing the upper harmony (guitar, piano, synth?).

Of course that could have been written as Gbadd2, but that would put the Bb in the upper harmony instruments and it would have failed to specify a Bb as the bass guitar note. Neither of which the arranger wanted.

So then, we know from this example, that the pitch 'Ab' absolutely cannot be sound as the highest voice? Why not call this "pro" charted chord a Gbadd2/Bb then?

It's hard to ascertain what the composer/copyist (from your 2nd and 3rd examples) wants since some of the chords are noted as poly-chords. Yes, that's REALLY the way Poly-chords are written.

added: Since it's nearly impossible with a QWERTY keyboard to create a Poly-Chord with the "Horizontal" line, some use this:

|

So... Here is a C triad over a D triad Poly-Chord: C | D

As I stated, you can also incorporate the "Slash" into a Poly-Chord:

A/B | Cm -- low to high: C, Eb, G | B, A, C#, E

The so-called "Pro" charts that I've read, that were typeset or done by hand by a copyist, used a "Horizontal" line.

I've been going through a bunch of charts looking for examples of either one of these notations. Ironically, I didn't find an example of either

Maybe none of these chords really exist!

 

[slybass3000]

Hey Stick,

What a cruisade for the truth !!!!

 

[Febs]

Maybe none of these chords really exist!

Ha ha! I just found it amusing that after we've spent so much time debating 9ths versus 2nds, I happened to find a chart where the arranger choose to use neither and just named the specific note.


(and to the extent that it matters, it was not a "home made" arrangement, but a chart by a well-known professional composer/arranger).

 

[slybass3000]

Yes it could be as well, especially if the third (either major or minor) is not to be played in the song or in that part of the tune.

Sometimes in chord notation it is possible also to name the actual note we are adding like this: D5 add E.

The whole debate here is the way to notate the sound of 2 fifths stacked together which could be this also: A5/D.

We should never forget that music notation and chord symbols are not perfect and they are a way to express the sound that a composer or an arranger wants in a simple form other then note for note in the most musical way and comprehensive way in the context of the music. We should not forget that we are discussing 3 notes here without knowing the tonality of the music. May be it is a major chord, or a minor chord or just an open chord à la Police.

There are about 4 valid ways now to describe that sound in this thread and they all depend on what was been played before or what will be play after to determine which one is best.

But I personally prefer the add9 notation to express the sound and voicing the OP asked for! But on the other hand, the notation of power chords like A5 or D5 could be very good also especially if it is a D bass pedal and we have power chords moving on top. It depends on the context.

I wrote this earlier in the thread!

As far as the chart, it is all wrong even if it is was published some how !!!!

You cannot mistaking inversions with poly-chords notation if you are a professional arranger !!!

 

[TL5]

Should I post a home-made chart with this voicing? Will that validate it?

I have provided a link to the full version of the charts I used as examples via your PM. You and Slybass3000 keep insisting that these charts are something that I have concocted on my own at home for the purpose of this discussion.
In this matter, you are simply wrong.

Arguing the theory of polychords simply diverts the discussion elsewhere. I know what polychords are. I also know what slash chords are.
The examples I posted - again - merely illustrate what one encounters in the real world, outside of the classroom or textbook. Those examples may not be theoretically perfect - or even correct - but they do illustrate exactly the single point that I've tried to make in this thread - the proper correct theory is NOT what you can expect to see in the wild. Any chord containing DEA is likely to be charted as a D2 or Dsus2. Even if it's wrong.

 

[Beginner Bass]

I'd say Dsus2, or Asus4, depending on the root you want to use.

 

[slybass3000]

I have provided a link to the full version of the charts I used as examples via your PM. You and Slybass3000 keep insisting that these charts are something that I have concocted on my own at home for the purpose of this discussion.
In this matter, you are simply wrong.

Arguing the theory of polychords simply diverts the discussion elsewhere. I know what polychords are. I also know what slash chords are.
The examples I posted - again - merely illustrate what one encounters in the real world, outside of the classroom or textbook. Those examples may not be theoretically perfect - or even correct - but they do illustrate exactly the single point that I've tried to make in this thread - the proper correct theory is NOT what you can expect to see in the wild. Any chord containing DEA is likely to be charted as a D2 or Dsus2. Even if it's wrong.

Please TL5, read carefully everything I wrote you earlier. I didn't say your charts are from your computer and you made them up. By saying they are home-made I mean these are not for professional usage. They are wrong and the fact that you deny the way inversions of chords are written as poly-chords show the lack of knowledge and that form of writing become locally accepted. Music notation should be internationalised.

 

[Stick_Player]

I have provided a link to the full version of the charts I used as examples via your PM. You and Slybass3000 keep insisting that these charts are something that I have concocted on my own at home for the purpose of this discussion.
In this matter, you are simply wrong.

Arguing the theory of polychords simply diverts the discussion elsewhere. I know what polychords are. I also know what slash chords are.
The examples I posted - again - merely illustrate what one encounters in the real world, outside of the classroom or textbook. Those examples may not be theoretically perfect - or even correct - but they do illustrate exactly the single point that I've tried to make in this thread - the proper correct theory is NOT what you can expect to see in the wild. Any chord containing DEA is likely to be charted as a D2 or Dsus2. Even if it's wrong.

I don't think anyone insinuated that YOU personally concocted the examples you posted. I assumed that they were charts that you have played from at some sort of gig.

The point is that they are poorly written. The method used in the 2nd and 3rd are incorrect - unless they are indeed poly-chords. These may be so-called 'real world' examples, but they are done badly, incorrectly and promote misinformation to further muddle the discussion. The arranger/composer/copyist does not know a lot of basic theory and has written down a lot of bad information. You should perhaps inform them so they may correct things in the future.

I only brought up the topic of poly-chords AFTER your so-called "pro" arrangement, that proved to be a poor and incorrect attempt by an amateur to note "Slash" chords.

I'm glad I haven't been subjected to such "beginner' charts for many years.

I would be more careful as to the accuracy of a supplemental example in future posts to support a position.

 

[PB+J]

As a bass player I'd call it a Dadd9 and I'd probably walk it as D,E, A, D. Might ad the third depending on what was going on elsewhere

Andy Summers has made a career off that chord (every breath you take) and so has Steely Dan

 

[slybass3000]

As a bass player I'd call it a Dadd9 and I'd probably walk it as D,E, A, D. Might ad the third depending on what was going on elsewhere

Andy Summers has made a career off that chord (every breath you take) and so has Steely Dan

Like it's been noted before, it is difficult to actually know what is the real harmonic content of that chord since it can be major or minor or open voicing without harmonic function.

Here are the undoubt possible notations from the OP post:

Dadd9 no3
Asus4/D
Dsus4 add 9 or add E
D5 add 9
A5/D