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Upgrading to Fear: The Plan

#41
jasper383 said:
You have a GK Neo 212? The 12/6 will not "crush" it.

fEarful cabs are really great (I have a 15/6 and a 12/6), but they aren't magic.
Click to expand...

Technical terms like "crush" aside, I do expect a fear 12/6 to outperform my GK 212. That is to say, given enough watts it can be louder. According to greenboy's FAQ, it should almost reach "good 410" levels of volume before hitting it's limit. If this is not the case I had better rethink some things.
 
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#42
scottfeldstein said:
Technical terms like "crush" aside, I do expect a fear 12/6 to outperform my GK 212. That is to say, given enough watts it can be louder. According to greenboy's FAQ, it should almost reach "good 410" levels of volume before hitting it's limit. If this is not the case I had better rethink some things.
Click to expand...

I dont think it can touch a 410. Will it out perform your 212? maybe. Its just not that big even if it can handle a lot of power. If you want, you could check out my rig to compare with yours and see if a 12/6 is a good fit (Crown XLS1500 > WT400 > 12/6). Im also outside of Milwaukee (west)
 
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#44
I've never pushed a good 410, 12/6, or 15/6 to its limits, so I don't know exactly what those limits are.

But... I'm pretty confident my 15/6/1 can outperform a good 410. The 12/6/1, I don't know. It gets pretty loud, that's for sure. It puts out a shocking amount of low end for its size. But running some tests with a friend who also has a 12/6, even at the same volume the 15/6/1 sounds BIGGER than the 12/6/1. They are well-designed boxes, but not magic. The 12/6/1 will have more boxy resonance than the 15/6/1. At the same volume, the 15/6/1 sounds more natural and relaxed. These are subtle differences that you probably would never hear unless you had one of each next to each other, but it's there nevertheless.

The best fEARful combo IMHO is 15/6/1 and 12/6/1 cube. You will get three combinations of size, and the combo of both stacks nicely and is almost as loud as a 1515/66.

As has been noted, they are not for everyone. I love my fEARfuls, but the BagEnd cabs are the sonic opposite (almost all midrange) and they sound wonderful. Right now I'm playing through my Baer ML212 more than anything else, and I also have an NV610 that sounds amazing. My point is, "flat response" doesn't fit everyone all the time. The fEARfuls put out a lot of nice pristine sound, but if you like a mid-focused sound, you will have to sculpt your lows and mids quite a bit to get what comes naturally to some other speakers.

And, volume is not an absolute number. My BagEnd S15-D can only take 200 watts, and has very little real low end or high end. On paper, that's kind of pathetic. In the real world, it's very loud and sounds great. Want a dubby subby sound? fEARful will kill most everything else. Want Geddy's sound? An efficient commercial speaker can probably match volumes and cutting power with the fEARful.
 
#46
scottfeldstein said:
Technical terms like "crush," aside I do expect a fear 12/6 to outperform my GK 212. That is to say, given enough watts it can be louder. According to greenboy's FAQ, it should almost reach "good 410" levels of volume before hitting it's limit. If this is not the case I had better rethink some things.
Click to expand...
Very hard to say.
Definitely louder than commercial 210s. Real close to your average 4x10, I'd still estimate short of their maximum. My 12/6/1 is louder than the point a Peavey 115 farts. Takes more power to get there but the 12/6/1 isn't struggling yet.
I've never used a commercial 2x12 near its limits, so I won't comment on that.
I will say under 80hz there aren't many commercial cabinets that touch it. Maybe an Ampeg 410HLF, I've never A/B'd them.
Same thing in the 1khz-4khz region, stronger than most.
Cabinets with subwoofer drivers and dedicated mids have the perception of being louder due to their superior dispersion. If you EQ out the frequencies they excel at then you lose those advantages.
Like anything else everyone has a specific circumstance that may not be equivalent to anyone else's.
 
#47
smeet said:
The best fEARful combo IMHO is 15/6/1 and 12/6/1 cube. You will get three combinations of size, and the combo of both stacks nicely and is almost as loud as a 1515/66.
Click to expand...
I almost went that route but decided on the std 12/6, a decision I have not regretted because I later changed bands and haven't needed the SPL of the 15/6 let alone both of them together. I still use the 15/6 for home practice which is overkill to say the least. ( As always YMMV.)
 
#48
How's this I sat down with these three cabs.

Bassic12
fEARful 12/6
fEARless F112.

FB_IMG_1426866522262.jpg


The Bassic uses a premium Faital woofer. Easily matches the best 112s out there. The 3012LF loaded cabs go a lot deeper, and get louder. Significantly louder. I don't think you will have any issue with a pair of 12/6's.
 
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#49
The issues I have with building a 15/6 are many. First, if it is more than a 410 cab performance-wise, most of the time I won't need that much. Yet I'd still be carrying around a big, 50 pound cab. Second, it'll cost me $700 to build it as opposed to the $550 for a 12/6. That's significant. Third, for those big stages what do I pair it with? Another 15/6 seems obvious, but now I'd have two cabs that overmatch my usual needs. A 12/6 cube might work, but for 70% of my performances I'd be stuck using a short "cube" model with even more need for elevation under it. To me the cube is more of an augment to your stack rather than your primary cab.

Advantage: maybe I don't even need a second cab. I'm playing a large stage in St. Paul on Friday. Gonna really think about this while I'm there.

As for the 12/6, if it can match (or better) the performance of my GK 212 it could function stand alone at rehearsal and some gigs. Also, it's smaller and lighter than either of my existing cabs--and cheaper than the 15/6. Let's not forget that part of this quest is to ease the backaches of this aging musician. And, paired with a second 12/6, it could match or exceed the performance my current 212/210 stack while losing a quarter of their weight.

The only disadvantage, if you can call it that, would be that I think the threshold of when I bring one cab instead of two would be lowered. It would have to be a pretty small show indeed for me to show up with a single 12 cab. I anticipate most of the time I'd bring the pair, even if only for the stack elevation.j

For those still reading this thread, thanks. Or...my apologies. I expect I'm going to do a lot of thinking-out-loud (so to speak) in this forum and in greenboy's before I'm done. Unsubscribe if you must :)
 
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#50
scottfeldstein said:
And, paired with a second 12/6, it could match or exceed the performance my current 212/210 stack while losing a quarter of their weight.
Click to expand...
This cannot be underestimated, nor can it be guaranteed.
If lightweight and inexpensive is your goal, please register on the greenboy forum. Torin has an excellent thread on how he built the lightest (at the time) wood 15/6. Most of not all his tricks should translate to a 12/6.
 
#52
I mean whats the difference in height of the regular vs cube 12/6? a few inches? probably not a deal breaker. How about a 1212/66? easier to transport than probably a lone 12/6 and all the volume you should need... Its only drawback is cost (as in right now cost). I think a 1212/66 is the way to go. I'd like to have rollers for my rig (not that I move it much).
 
#53
A further thought. For the future. If I wind up with, say, a pair of 12/6 cabs I might need to upgrade my amp. 500w @ 4 Ohms may not be enough to push them into "near 410" performance should I ever need it.

The 1212/66 does look great from a total cost and a performance level. Problem is, it falls down on the single-cab weight issue and on the initial cash outlay issue.
 
#54
scottfeldstein said:
A further thought. For the future. If I wind up with, say, a pair of 12/6 cabs I might need to upgrade my amp. 500w @ 4 Ohms may not be enough to push them into "near 410" performance should I ever need it.

The 1212/66 does look great from a total cost and a performance level. Problem is, it falls down on the single-cab weight issue and on the initial cash outlay issue.
Click to expand...
At 250-300w I don't find my 12/6/1 to be much louder than conventional 112s.
Clear: yeah.
Deep: definitely.
Magically loud:no.
 
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#57
Changing up rigs is tough work if you want to do it once and be done with it.

I get where you're coming from in terms of size weight and $. Something that might help you find the best trade off is to factor in the displacement capabilities of different woofers. Eminence publishes their displacement spec for the drivers used in the different Greenboy cabinets. They also spec displacement for some drivers found in a whole pile of other manufacturer's products. That'll give you a good baseline for comparative capabilities. Put it all in a spreadsheet and you'll quickly see some things pop into focus.

The other thing to consider is what problem you have now that you want to solve. Classic problems are volume, tone, weight, size of the cabinet (like too big to get through a door gracefully) dispersion and so on. Take the time to think through which of those matter the most to you. Once again, the spreadsheet is your friend.

Finally, keep asking yourself; will this product have a short coming that will grow to be its reason for getting sold? If it does, don't buy it.

Real economy = long term purchase. Set yourself up for that.
 
#58
Sounds like wise advice, thanks. Yes, I'm trying to think: what are the problems I'm trying to solve with this endeavor? I think the answer is that I want a smaller, lighter rig with no performance sacrifices. My Neo 212 weighs around 50 pounds. A pair of them would weigh 100lbs. I want to get the same or more volume* at 75 pounds and a commensurate size decrease.

(* Not necessarily with the same wattage, understanding that I'd need more power to drive 12/6's into that kind of performance.)
 
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#59
Hey Scott-

If you're going to be in the Twin Cities this weekend and want to check out my rig, let me know, maybe we can make it happen. My schedule is kind of nutty with the two little guys and all their activities, but if we can make it happen, cool.

Lonnybass
 
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